CBBC - just a girl

Late to the party. So glad my kids have moved onto spongebob instead of the cbbc stuff tbh

As for this whole 'woman is a feeling' thing. Lets approach this properly. Lets accept woman is a feeling. Fine. Dictionary definitions need updated.

Woman - A person who feels like a woman

but what is a woman?!

A person who feels like a woman.

And so on. I don't think it works?

ripples I think the statistics is that in 80% of children who have gender dysphoria, it spontaneously resolves and they turn out to be non-trans gay adults.
So maybe it would be better for trans teens to explore that side of things so they can live an adult live fertile and not dependent on medication.
The narrative that people are "born trans"/"brain in wrong body" presented by this kind of programme can be unhelpful. For the 20% who end up being trans adults maybe that is an accurate assessment. But what about the 80%?

Flora

Ok, I accept that you're not going to provide me with links. I have no reason as things stand therefore to concede to your point, seeing as you are not prepared to back up your point after being asked politely to do so.

Please don't present a straw man to me either. I have never once said that there is no homophobia in the UK. I have experienced it. I have however experienced more negativity towards myself while out presenting as female. The funny thing is, when faced with such negativity, a typical "slur" that I face is people calling me gay because I am a man dressed as a woman.

Which, even if annecdotal, is, I suppose something that is food for thought for those people in this country who would rather have a trans child than a gay child. Or put more succinctly, their trans child is likely to be subjected to homophobic remarks because they are trans anyway.

One final point, and this will be my final point to you. Everyone else in this thread have been polite, inquisitive, and engaging towards me. You, Flora, on the other hand, have been nothing but obstructive. I have no time for people like you, as you do nothing to further the discussion in a constructive sense.

"those who are homophobic / live in homophobic communities they may well prefer their child to be labelled trans rather than gay"

I'm no stranger to homophobic communities, having lived in a few, and IME they tend to be even more transphobic than homophobic.

If anyone has concrete examples to show, I would be interested to read them.

"And being trans is arguably far more stigmatising than being gay, especially in the larger cities."

But we're not talking about the relative stigma experienced by a trans person vs a gay person.

We're talking about the stigma of being the parent of a trans or gay child. For those who are homophobic / live in homophobic communities they may well prefer their child to be labelled trans rather than gay, even if the reality is their child will experience greater stigma as a trans person.

ripples I'm not going to present you with a list of links. Another poster has mentioned Jazz Jennings. Perhaps you could bear this in mind as you consider other cases of children who want to transition and pay attention to what the parents say, especially the dads. I find it surprising that a gay man wouldn't recognise that just because there is no death penalty for gay men in the U.K. doesn't mean there is no homophobia or that parents would prefer to have a "born in the wrong body" "heterosexual" child rather than a gay child.

I have no doubt that that is the case Datum.

Statistically speaking, there will be a certain percentage of trans people who are gay.

If a mtf trans person transitions, and has relationships with men, then would they (in such a survey that is used to garner these stats) be regarded as heterosexual?

If the same trans person doesn't transition, and goes on to have relationships with men, then would they (in such a survey that is used to garner these stats) be regarded as gay?

ripples

Your zero and one post that time (if that wasn't you I apologise) was very articulate and certainly gave me some insight into why one may wish to change gender.

Maybe you could ctrlv/c from your post history?

Fair enough ripples.

In terms of homophobia - I think there are some stats which indicate that teenage trans, if left alone, turn out to be gay.

Not understanding why this could be related to homophobia sounds disingenuous to me.

Beyondresonably...

Me not understanding what relevance Iran has to this thread, or indeed the post to which you specifically replied, is not being disingenuous

"I was only answering the previous post when I brought up Iran, not the whole thread. Not understanding why this could be related to homophobia sounds disingenuous to me."

We do understand why it would be the case in Iran, where a gay relationship would be your death sentence.

We don't quite get why you think that is applicable to the UK, where there simply isn't that sort of persecution. And being trans is arguably far more stigmatising than being gay, especially in the larger cities.

Datun

You ask "why the trans"

I did say earlier in my posts in this thread that the word "trans" doesn't really hold much resonance with me.

Feel free to google the subject

Flora, I have just googled the following:

"parents more comfortable with their child being transgender than homosexual"

And google has returned the following:

www.google.co.uk/search?q=parents+more+comfortable+with+their+child+being+transgender+than+homosexual&rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB440GB455&oq=parents+more+comfortable+with+their+child+being+transgender+than+homosexual&aqs=chrome..69i57.12536j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

It is not very helpful in addressing the very point that you have made. The answers may be in there somewhere, but instead of me crawling through numerous links in the hope of finding what you are referring to...

...And especially as you are clearly aware of these "many accounts", would you please link (at least some of) them to me and save me the time?

Ripples
There is no reason you shouldn't feel to wear traditionally feminine clothing. Many women reject such clothing as is their right and why shouldn't it be the same for men?

Thanks for posting and talking here. You are courageous. And re the clothes, come over to Style and Beauty, it's fab

Would love to see these many accounts.

Feel free to google the subject.

htdef and ripples

Whilst you both seem 'genuine trans' (for want of a better word, sorry), what is your take on transwomen insisting they are women and wanting access to women only spaces?

"What I don't understand is why beyondreasonably would say "one word: Iran" in the context of this thread"
Ripples, I was only answering the previous post when I brought up Iran, not the whole thread. Not understanding why this could be related to homophobia sounds disingenuous to me.

ageingrunner

I know your question was directed towards ripples, but as a trans person I who grew up in a household where I can dress in any way I wanted and play with whatever I wanted, I still grew up to be trans so I don't think society being more accepting would have changed the fact I'm trans. Although, as an ftm trans person I can see that men are less able to dress in traditionally feminine clothing so there may be differences there.

I think I'm coming from the same place as ripples in many ways, I am biologically female but present as male as my experience with being trans is that my brain is expecting me to have male secondary sexual characteristics and it is just so jarring to see female ones. It is a shock for me every time I look at myself, I certainly don't feel like a man, I just feel like me, I haven't got a bloody clue what a man feels like - and I suspect it is different for every single one.

RIpples. So why the trans ? Is it just easier to say you're trans rather than a man who likes women's fashions? (I'm thinking Izzard here, who recently switched from liking women's clothes to trans).

Datun

I don't want to be female. I do however love to dress in what society regards to be female clothes. I do present as a woman - that is dress in a way that society would expect from a woman, not a man,, but I don't want to trick anyone into believing that I am actually female. I have no idea what it means to be female, no experience of being female. So how could I possibly say that I want to be something that I have no experience of being? (Apologies for using the word "something")

For me personally, it's all about fashion. I just prefer women's fashions to men. In that respect, I'm nothing more than a man who likes to wear women's clothes, wear make up, hairstyles etc

Thanks for answering ripples. I would also love it if everyone could wear whatever they wanted and have hair however they pleased etc. I think society would be much the better for it.

Please don't feel pressured. It's very refreshing to have a critically thinking trans to ask !

Flora

Would love to see these many accounts.

Not disputing you, would just love to read them for myself.

Because if that is the case, then it needs to be seriously addressed.

Ripples. I get the chicken and egg. And that's a new take. Can you say what it is about females that makes you want to be one. Not a trick question.

That's a great question ageingrunner.

Personally I would love nothing more than people being able to dress how they wished without being labelled at all. Personally I think that is the way forward here - no pressure to be what society seems to expect.

I do however think that it can go deeper for some. To use an example, a boy may well want to play with "girls" toys because that is what he sees girls playing with, and it's through witnessing that that makes him want to copy that. That is, the only reason he wants those toys is because that's what he sees girls playing with.

It's a chicken and egg situation for me. What is so hard to determine is what actually did come first.