CBBC - just a girl

Not clear

Flora

What are my intentions?

Seriously koko? For one thing, I'm not going to start singling out particular families and pointing to them as examples of homophobia. I mentioned Jazz Jennings because that family has a particularly high profile. I'd also mention Susie Green because she castrated her gay son at 16 and promoted this fact about herself. I'm also not interested in expending energy on a poster whose intentions are. It clear and who can't be bothered to come up with a half-decent google search. It's more useful if you bear this thought in mind when hearing other accounts from families, including the recent influx from Mermaids.

Thanks htdef

It is pretty daft to state something you're presenting as fact and then refuse to back it up flora.

Interesting discussion. Nice to see a mtf trans poster actually engage properly with the issues many of us are concerned about.

htdef

htdef - thanks for posting, it's always good to hear from someone who walks the walk

That's just plain stupid

htdef - " All I want is to not feel constant unease and stress over my sexual presentation and for legal things such as, not being fired for being trans to be in place." "I agree penis = no entry into female spaces"

100% with you on both of these points. I want to see trans people able to work, go about daily life, get accommodation, all the other aspects of human rights we all enjoy - but that doesn't mean pretending biology isn't there in circumstances where it's relevant, and I'm so glad you feel the same. Thanks for coming here and reminding us all that most trans people are sane, sensible people! (I know a few trans people in RL, and they are a million miles from the barking mad trans activists online).

You get it htdef. I wish you well and will stand by your side to not face discrimination. (Loos aside!).

Datun

I'm pretty matter of fact about my position so I don't mind people pointing out that I was born female, as I was (and still am biologically female) so I'm not going to get offended by it at all! There are some trans people who do feel that transactivists really do not speak for them at all, and I am definitely one of them. All I want is to not feel constant unease and stress over my sexual presentation and for legal things such as, not being fired for being trans to be in place.

vesuvia

I understand that legally they are considered to be trans, I think that being able to state it and it be so in an ideal word would be great, but we live in reality and the truth is that it will be (and is) used to the detriment of women and people who are genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria (that was the phrase I should have used instead of actual trans people).

0phelia

I didn't make myself overly clear, I agree penis = no entry into female spaces, I just began to ramble over the possible issues with asking ftm people to use female spaces and the potential issues that could cause with actual crimes taking place, not the end result of prosecution as obviously that isn't a lie you could maintain! That's why I think it is best to use gender neutral spaces if you are trans, then female spaces are kept in tact.

I absolutely do understand the risk men pose to women, I have lived in a female body for 29 years and have been on the receiving end of what men can do to women. I genuinely do understand the need for the protection of these spaces, I'm sorry if it came across as me saying anything else.

will men just walk in claiming to be FTM?

Erm once he has stalked you home and raped you with his penis I think that claim will be negated.

The bottom line is protecting women from men. Males are of the 50% of the population who are most likely to be violent and sexually violent to the other non-male 50% of the population.

Banning penises in a dress from entering female spaces protects women from this violence. Allowing penises in a dress into women's spaces does not protect them ftom this violence. It's a no brainer.

If a man claims to be ftm to enter these spaces and commits a typically male crime he only needs to be found guilty of simply being a man in a woman's space for the law to be on her side and henceforth women are protected. No "did he or didn't he stalk you, what were you wearing, were you asking for it did you lead him on did you lure him in were you drunk how many men have you had sex with already??" which is what women have to put up with today, man in a dress or no dress.

but the spectrum of trans has widened enormously in the past few years.

To include chancers, voyeurs, rapists and anyone else who will exploit a loophole. A loophole which has been made possible by the transactivists representing the ideology in general. Talk about irony.

htdef wrote - "the recent spate of sex offenders suddenly deciding that they are trans affirms the reasons people are uneasy about sharing their space with trans people, even though the chances are the actual trans people won't be an issue"

The male sex offenders and predators who are suddenly deciding that they are trans, ARE actual trans people, either now or in the not too distant future, in a growing number of countries, due governments favouring self-declaration instead of e.g. medical history of body dysmorphia. These people may not be what was called transsexual in pre-Twitter times, but the spectrum of trans has widened enormously in the past few years.

The inability of laws to distinguish between these two subsets of trans people is one of the fundamental objections that gender-critical feminists try to point out, but the objections are repeatedly dismissed by transactivists.

htdef

Thanks for replying. Your previous post about finding your genitalia jarring made me think. I don't know if it's your way of expressing yourself but it resonated more with me (I hesitate to say it's because your were born a woman, but it's what I thought. Sorry).

And your post above demonstrates that you fully understand why women want to keep their spaces.

Personally I've been on a steep learning curve about the trans issue and find that I am far more compassionate to those I term 'genuine' than I was before.

Having said that I'm furious for both you, me and every genuine trans person that the TRAs are ruining it for everyone.

Sorry for responding so late Datun. The toilet issue is complex, there can be dangers for trans people using the bathroom of their biological sex, but I wholeheartedly understand the concerns women have allowing people with penises into their women only spaces. I personally will use the women's toilets if I absolutely must use the bathroom, but look more androgynous than male so I might get the odd funny look but shouldn't be causing too much stress to anyone. It is absolutely something that needs full discussion and the lobbying against anyone who is anti trans is something I will never support, even if you say something I don't like, I wholeheartedly will fight for your right to be able to say it.
The reality is, is that women have got a reason to be wary of men, and pretending that that is an invalid position is downright offensive. Also, the recent spate of sex offenders suddenly deciding that they are trans affirms the reasons people are uneasy about sharing their space with trans people, even though the chances are the actual trans people won't be an issue - for me the thought of using my genitalia is terrifying, sorry, that is probably a little more than anyone would want to know! The fact is, it could allow predators a legitimate way into women only spaces. The other issue is that saying you need to use your biological sex bathroom is that will then men just walk in claiming to be FTM? I have no idea what the solution should be, I would err on the side of asking trans people to use gender neutral bathrooms, yeah it's a bit shitty for some of us, although would be my preferred option, but there is a legitimate reason for concern.
The problem is that sex offenders using trans as a label, or other types using it for whatever reason but not genuine gender dysphoria reasons not only hurts women, but it massively hurts people who are actually trans and have to endure a life with what is essentially a medical condition.

Also, I have heard trans people say their family preferred having a trans son to a lesbian daughter, it definitely can be influenced by homophobia, and the lack of lgb representation for children is shocking.

I don't know that I've made any sense at all as I was also being sat on by my toddler whilst having a pretty nonsensical conversation with him, and trying to type out a coherent replay so my apologies if it is gibberish!

Maybe his son actually identified as a British boy, and he should have got him a UK passport instead

oleannas definitely - I read a blog by a dad who used the fact his bio son liked soccer as conclusive evidence that he was actually a girl.

Not sure, Empress.

I found it interesting that Jazz Jennings is portrayed as being "banned from playing soccer when she was 8", when I would bet good money that there were plenty of co-ed teams that she could have joined (my DS's soccer team has a girl on it, many of the opposition have one or two girls, though it's less frequent now that they are getting older).

It's been used at least once in the States as evidence that a boy was MTF, hasn't it, Olenna?

I'm always rather amused when the liking soccer = being a boy thing is trotted out, as - in addition to it being a lazy cliche - here in the States soccer is very much a girls sport. I'm assuming that there aren't lots of FTT girls running around the soccer pitch every Saturday morning.

Link to podcast of the Today Programme discussing this issue. The 'anti' voice is represented by someone from the Conservative Woman website.

They must have dropped it, I thought I just missed it but having gone back I can't find anything

This is excellent and very relevant here

4thwavenow.com/2016/01/25/the-surgical-suite-modern-day-closet-for-todays-teen-lesbian/

I'm quite worried that this will be framed as right wing Christians against people who just want to be themselves.

Possibly. Though I recently had opportunity to read a Christian (not sure whether that group is right wing) pamphlet on "gender mainstreaming", and they didn't actually understand the difference between not forcing gender on children (let them play with whatever toys they like, etc.) and enforcing transgenderism (let them play with the toys they like and assign gender to them according to those toys, not according to sex), they are against both.