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But again there are flaws, janitor/cleaner isn't the same thing. Janitors are generally male custodians whereas cleaners are a female dominated industry.

There are reasons janitor/cleaner wage is higher than a maids
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8608855/Million-more-people-employ-a-cleaner-than-a-decade-ago.html

Part time cleaners earn over £10 per hour, and janitors are more regularly required to have a further skillset around the building they work.

Another would be average age, I'm willing to bet the average age of a janitor is significantly higher than that of a hotel maid, and you know minimum wage is age banded.

Interestingly, after benefits and stuff maids earn more 20k opposed to 17k. The range for maid is lower AND higher.

The stats you sent also don't differentiate between sexes, which is the focus of the debate, so although actually interesting they don't prove much except if i'm going to clean I'll do so privately, or at a multi skilled property as opposed to a hotel.

Did you report the employer, FIFA, given that positive discrimination is not legal in the UK?

The most dangerous and least-wanted job in the world is female-dominated - prostitution

gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer

Also that. That's why quotas and diversity aren't bad. They've done the same with foreign sounding names.

You would be well advised to watch some of the diversity videos Google released on their hiring practices. It's fascinating how much effect unconscious bias has.

But that's enough research. You can google as well as anyone else. I have actual, paid work to do.

Janitors are paid 22% more than maids? Both are minimum wage jobs, so either women are excepting 22% less than minimum wage, or men are doing 22% more hours, which do you think is more likely

Well, according to payscale, which analyses actual wages, the maids do the overtime:

www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Janitor_or_Cleaner_(but_not_Maid_or_Housekeeping_Cleaner)/Hourly_Rate

www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Maid_or_Housekeeping_Cleaner/Hourly_Rate

Which has a median pay rate higher for janitors than maids, but maids make up their salary with overtime.

Interestingly, a maid's salary also stays static with experience, whereas janitors leave the job.

But things are far more nuanced than masculinity = bad femeninity = good!

Indeed: which is why I never made such a simplistic statement.

As an example, I recently had to turn a job down, I sat there in the waiting room with a white man my senior, he had a crazy amount of experience, and a doctorate degree in the subject, to the point where I nearly never bothered going in.

After the interview he wished me good luck, and we went our seperate ways, the interview from my POV was ok, but due to me being a little down I hadn't been my usual passionate self etc...

I got call an hour later and was offered the job, I was shocked. After a moment or 2 of conversation I grew the guts to ask about the other guy, they responded with:

'XXXX, we loved him, great experience and superb education, he wouldve made a great addition also, however here at XXXXXX we value diversity...'

At that I exploded at how disgusted I was to be considered a diversity number, and would not take part in taking a job from a man who deserved it more than me!

It's not necessarily a mark of success to go to university.

I think many boys wanting to go into traditionally male jobs like plumbing would be unhappy if they were told they were now required to get a degree.

Someone better call Stanford University and tell them - a bloke on the internet thinks their research is bollocks. They'll be happy to take on board the feedback, I'm sure.

And, I'm out. Sorry OP

Because they will be using members of their actual workforce rather than actors.

Remember Howard from the Halifax for example? He was a member of staff. I used to work for a large retailer and the people in the adverts were always actual staff members. Much cheaper than using actors.

Issues surrounding womens oppression of the past are compiled due to a number of reasons, masculinity being one of them.

But things are far more nuanced than masculinity = bad femeninity = good!

Who

I am reading that, but in the first sector alone there is a glaring issue...

Janitors are paid 22% more than maids? Both are minimum wage jobs, so either women are excepting 22% less than minimum wage, or men are doing 22% more hours, which do you think is more likely?

Then 'using a complex formula' hahahaha come on.

Computer programming is a laughable instance, it went from menial labour, to expertise driven, thats laughably biased.

Not to mention its a historical performed today, and not very scholarly.

Like I said, what has happened has happened, lets move forward making things good for everyone, if more girls succeed at school, and more women graduate college, and if women are 36% more likely to get a job applied for then there is a swing in dominance, and soon there will be backlash, why not avoid mistakes of the past?

So your argument to current unfairness is, well it used to be the opposite so unlucky?!?!

No, that's not what I'm saying. I am merely pondering why when they perceive there is a problem with boys (overlooking the fact that men still hold the majority of high paid jobs despite their apparent disadvantages) there is this idea that feminisation is to blame, when no one blamed masculinisation when girls had problems with education, careers etc.

It's a simply question. What is your answer?

Did you read the link I gave upthread, Fifa? I really think it might help you understand what we're on about here.

Nursing is not a particularly financially well rewarded career, although it can be if you climb the ranks. It carries less status than being a doctor. It is a job typically done by women. These facts are related. This is not a controversial viewpoint.

Have you read that book fifa?

I think you would find it interesting

So your argument to current unfairness is, well it used to be the opposite so unlucky?!?!

I havn't been in this country that long, but my experiences are of female dominance, minority focus, and that the dominant narrative is that only one group is the problem. That for me will lead to racism toward white men very quickly!

How about we acknowledge tough times in the past, but going forward do whats best for everyone? If boys are failing and dropping out of education in record numbers it needs addressing, otherwise those large numbers of disenfranchised boys will become a problem in society

Fifa: I believe this answers your question

www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html?_r=0

Agree with all of gwens posts

I think there was a chapter on that in the 'delusions of gender' book

The idea of feminisation of the west, from my understanding is the unfair behaviour towards boys at lower levels now, record number of dropouts, record number of behavioural problems, record lows in results etc...

Yet when there was unfair behaviour towards girls*, e.g. banned from certain jobs, having to give up work when married, not allowed to be granted degrees on the same basis as men..... (I'm sure you are fair enough to agree that this used to be the case) no one talked about over masculinisation did they? Why not?

You believe nursing, which is female dominated are valued less????

"As anthropologist Margaret Mead once noted, there are cultures in which men weave and women fish, and ones in which women weave and men fish. But in either case, the work that women perform is valued less."

In a way, doesn't matter what jobs we do.

"This attitude that when females become much more (or even a little more) common in certain roles it is a worrying thing really bugs me."

There is actually a negative. When a job is seen as primarily a woman's job, pay and status tends to go down.

"currently seamstresses are usually women and that carpenters are usually men"

There are male dressmakers and tailors, we just wouldn't use the word seamstress.

whoputthecatout

There were a few too many assumptions in that for me to understand how you got from putting men as seamstresses to the masculinisation of human history, and women being non human.

The idea of feminisation of the west, from my understanding is the unfair behaviour towards boys at lower levels now, record number of dropouts, record number of behavioural problems, record lows in results etc...

Having discussed this on another thread, online abuse, right wing activism is all on the rise, and mainly purpotrated by young disenfranchised men, it's a lash out to a recent change in the system that has alienated masculine behaviour. It's amazing how similar experiences of these young men are identical, even when they come from different regions, labeled trouble makers at a really early age due to their boystressness, and having a snowball effect until they consider themselves as bad and failures by trait.

Your valid in that a man could be shown as a seamstress, however wouldn't that give ammo to the people who believe western civilisation is being overly feminised by the media?

We see this statement about feminisation a lot e.g. about primary teachers. When women were really rare in, say, politics, authority roles, particular careers, no one talked about western civilisation being overly masculinised did they? Why not? Because men = default. Women = other.

This attitude that when females become much more (or even a little more) common in certain roles it is a worrying thing really bugs me. Why is it apparently so awful that women are, you know, humans simply doing a job?