General Trans Discussion Thread

I haven't started a new thread for this, because it's only a possibility at this point (official nominations come out next year), but the Academy is considering a "gender flexible" actor for both best actor and best actress...

I can't begin to imagine how we'd go about teaching girls about safety and bodily integrity / boundaries. Girls will grow up with all sorts of mixed and confused messages.

Was randomly reading this article about butch women's experiences being made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies toilets. www.alternet.org/human-rights/butch-women-discriminated-against-womens-bathrooms

Except the first "experience" is not from a butch woman, but a trans woman who by their own admission, still presents as male. So a biological male, who looks stereotypically masculine, being questioned when trying to enter a female toilet. And this being labelled as "discrimination against butch lesbians?" The world has gone mad

"Having had it drilled into us that men pose a potential risk to us we are now suddenly being told that it's bigoted to recognize that the man in a dress is a man, or express our concerns about the destruction of woman only spaces."

Spot on.

But... but... you are missing the simple solution to it all:

Wear A Blindfold!

The crazy thing is that women learn while still very young to be aware of men around them, to be wary of men when in a particularly vulnerable position, whether walking late at night or getting changed at the gym. Having had it drilled into us that men pose a potential risk to us we are now suddenly being told that it's bigoted to recognize that the man in a dress is a man, or express our concerns about the destruction of woman only spaces. The trans agenda is directly in opposition to women's rights and interests.

Boldly

Self-identification seems like a carte-blanche to allowing predatory males access to safe female spaces.

That's precisely what it is. If the criteria is removed from the legal identification of trans ( as is currently being pushed by Maria Miller), then any man, any day, anywhere, however temporarily, can identify as a woman and walk in. And you can't challenge it.

I've been trying to work out why the campaign for transwomen to be legally able to access female spaces makes me uncomfortable. I've certainly shared public toilets with transwomen before - not very often, just once or twice. It didn't bother me but I think that was down to how the transwoman conducted herself - quite unobtrusive and mindful of others.

However, I do not want it to be legal for anyone who 'says they are a woman' to have access. For me, it seems to be linked to the ability to police my own safe space. Like many others, I've come across men in the past who have made me feel very uncomfortable for no apparent reason. On the surface they were friendly but something felt 'off' and I'd avoid being alone with them or just cut them off. I really don't feel comfortable with a narrative that tells young girls/women that they should welcome anyone into their space. Worse, that they don't have the right to feel scared or uncomfortable with a male body in toilets or changing rooms. I would have really struggled if one guy I knew in particular had said they were a woman and began to access female changing rooms - I would not have felt safe at all and as a young student would not have had the confidence to challenge it.

I don't think I'm articulating this particularly well but I really don't like this airy dismissal of the feelings of some women and girls on this matter. Some men are a danger to us and it's important to be able to listen to those instincts instead of being made to feel like a bigot. Self-identification seems like a carte-blanche to allowing predatory males access to safe female spaces.

You're quite right, of course, Witching.

"it isn't worth meeting extreme (trans activitists) with extreme (ban all penises from toilets etc)."

It is not "extreme" for women to want to retain sex segregated spaces. The only ones who argue that it is are those pushing a mens rights ideology.

"boys/men being treated differently by society alone is going to lead to brains being wired up differently."

The brain is plastic it does not matter how ones brain is "wired up" at one given moment in time. The brain can change if someone changes their behaviour.

For example the hippocampus in London taxi drivers changes after learning "the knowledge", and the cerebellum and cerebral cortex in ballet dancers changes after learning to pirouette. Various areas in the brain also change in sufferers of OCD, simple phobias, social phobia, PTSD and depression after completing behavioural and talking therapies.

"there is therefore equally lacking research pointing to the assertion that there may be no genuine trans"

This sounds similar to creationists who say "no one has proved deities do not exist, so religion is equally valid a theory as evolution".

There is copious historical evidence that some homosexual people thought it better to argue they were born in the wrong body, in order to gain public acceptance. There is also hard evidence that this eventually led to hormone "treatments", and "sex change" surgeries being given to "cure" them.

Equally there is also plenty of historical evidence of men becoming sexually excited by wearing "women's" clothing .

Additionally there is numerous evidence that women historically have tried to escape the restrictions imposed on them, by pretending to be men.

By analysing the social and political climate we can come to conclusions about what motives are likely behind an action. Yes we could claim these people were all really stuck in the wrong body, but we have to decide which of these explanations seem most plausible.

"One of the main problems is the trans-activists and those with a dubious motive have hijacked the entire ideology."

I know it is tempting to focus on TA's, but the real problem is the ideology of queer theory itself, which is comprised of postmodernism, sexual libertarianism and individualism. It is from this that concept of "transgenderism" originates.

Queer theory says the categories of women and men are not fixed, that anyone can identify as either. It approves of sexual fetishes and does not think they should be criticised. It respects the rights of the individual above all else. All of this of course advantages men and disadvantages women. It is not really that TA's have hijacked the ideology, it is more accurate to say the entire ideology is itself built on mens rights.

I know on the surface it seems polite/respectful to refer to "genuine trans" or use opposite sex pronouns etc. However, doing this makes it much harder to claim women are a stable category, as it implies that some males can become women. Ultimately it adds legitimacy to this dangerous ideology. To fight it I believe women have to be firm that no male can ever become a woman, which means rejecting the ideology entirely.

For the "born in the wrong body" theory to work you need two things:

1. innate sex based brain differences which are not subject to environmental factors
2. evidence that trans people have the brains of the opposite sex

There is zero evidence for this. To the best of my knowledge there was one study which showed slight differences in areas of white matter between men and women and that trans women had white matter structures in this area which were somewhere between men and women. This study was very small and its results have not been replicated.

As transwomen retain male pattern violence and any associated sexual philia is almost exclusively male, it disproves any suggestion of brain sex anyway.

That's certainly a factor, cani - the brain isn't something that is set in stone at birth - it develops over our lifetimes in response to the world around it. Plasticity is a huge issue when studying the brain, because there's no way to fully control for what the "natural" or "inborn" brain function is, to contrast against what the brain becomes in response to a lifetime of experience.

It's also worth remembering that the science in this regard is not neutral - there is a massive amount of money to be had when studying gender differences in the brain, and that influences what is being researched and reported. And yet, despite that, the evidence is still broadly inconclusive. Which is interesting in itself.

Something worth thinking about is - even if there was a measurable, functional difference in male and female brains - so what? If a male could be born with a typically "female" brain, what do you do with that information? He still has male biology.

Yes, agreed that more studies are needed into the mental health aspects (although, witching, there is therefore equally lacking research pointing to the assertion that there may be no genuine trans). Agreed that hardline and abusive comments coming from transactivists should be challenged - as I said in my first post, within the trans community there are significant differences of opinion, to put it mildly. Agreed re banning of any person who had committed a violence crime, sexual or otherwise. In summary, surely the issue is complicated, not least because of the lack of research re mental health aspects, and it isn't worth meeting extreme (trans activitists) with extreme (ban all penises from toilets etc).

And in relation to that last bit in parentheses, Datun, a quote from your last link (alicedreger) is "But socially, if you tell me you’re a woman, I believe progressivism (which is political)—and in particular a respect for human rights—means you’re fully entitled to join me in the bathroom I usually use. (I say “usually” because I use the men’s when there’s too long a line at the women’s. You’re welcome to join me there, too. The guys are usually quite nice about it if you first seek consent to enter and don’t stare at their penises once you’re in)" Thanks for posting the links, have only skim read so far but will read again. Yes, it has been damn hard, thanks for that empathy too.

In relation to the brain, thanks for posting the link, toastdemon. I have googled and there seem to be studies going either way. Some are based on extensive scan reserach indicating different activity, not exclusively related to the hippocampus. I am a female (born a female!) and I wouldn't consider my brain to be particularly challenged - I have post grad qualifications and worked for a decade in a high pressure, male dominated profession, had no problems, can reverse park, yadadada, and am now a sahm - but based on my life experiences so far if I had to put money on it I'd say there would be differences - boys/men being treated differently by society alone is going to lead to brains being wired up differently (though making a huge generalisation there obviously).

For the person who for some reason believes there are brain sex differences, here is a link to a recent study of the meta-data. It debunks it.

Regarding trans offenders, some of you may not be aware of a site called Allison's Law. The site's purpose is to "Ban rapists and violent predators from changing legal gender & name" as currently offenders can to all intents and purposes "vanish" from the criminal justice system by transitioning. They leave the crimes and the public awareness of their offences behind with their unwanted "dead name".

The site is named after the brave and stunning Allison Woolbert, aka Dennis Wayne Woolbert. Up until early 2015, Allison was a prominent American TRA, founder of TERF Tracker, executive director of the Transgender Human Rights Institute, the Trans Violence Tracking Portal, etc, etc.

Allison was doing great as a human rights activist until it emerged that back when Allison was Dennis, he committed a violent sex attack on a 15yo relative.

The fact that Allison could change his name and gender ID allowed Allison to create a new identity, separate from his criminal record. We've already seen what can happen with the reporting on the recent case of a runner who tried to murder the man investigating him misrepresenting his sex in competition.

For more about Allison Woolbert, click here .

WitchingHour666

I do largely agree with you. I was making a distinction between those with gender dysphoria, and those without. I too, think the reasons for gender dysphoria have not yet been explored to a significant extent. And that is why therapy, to me, is the first line of treatment.

One of the main problems is the trans-activists and those with a dubious motive have hijacked the entire ideology. It does leave those with a genuine concern, rather out in the cold. Is those I call 'genuine'. But I agree, there is no such thing as brain sex and it ought be treated as a mental issue on a much larger scale than it is at the moment.

However, for the time being, this is not happening. And until it does, I would like to see the trans-activists version of the ideology held up to more scrutiny, as it is the least credible and the most dangerous.

Prawn
"However I suspect that the police will keep their own records, registering offenders by sex, maybe as well as gender presentation."

I certainly hope that the police are allowed to do this. That it is not possible to seal or erase traces of a person's former official existence as with health records. Tracking down new offenders would depend on there being a central record of a person's sex being officially 'corrected'.

I am learning a lot on this thread. Thank you everyone.

"I have no doubt that there are genuine trans-people."

Who are these "genuine trans people" though? There are males and especially females who suffer from body dysmorphia, and believe part of their body should be removed or altered. There are also people who genuinely believe they are the opposite sex stuck in the wrong body. However, both of these feelings/convictions are a result of faulty thinking/reasoning, the underlying cause for these beliefs needs to be addressed.

For example one of the effects of child abuse can be to develop a revulsion with the body, particularly the genitals. Another cause for girls specifically believing they are the opposite sex, is they are now growing up in a culture where females are expected to be highly sexualised. Many girls do not feel this represents who they are, and so feel they must be male.

Moreover, those who believe they are the opposite sex have rigid thinking about the sex roles, and think if they like particular activities, clothes etc, that makes them the opposite sex. Young children and especially autistic people tend to have rigid thinking, which is why they in particular can easily think they are "trans". Then there is the internalised homophobia element, where it is more acceptable to think of oneself as being stuck in the wrong body then homosexual.

I do not think any of the above makes one a "genuine trans"; which is a product of an ideology. In fact I think it is doing a great disservice to survivors of child abuse, girls who do not want to be sexualised, children, autistic people and homosexuals to confirm they are indeed stuck in the wrong body: "trans". Furthermore, one can only believe "genuine trans" exists, if one buys into the ideology that either "brain sex" or a female/male soul or essence exists that overrides biological sex. Both of these ideological beliefs are of course anti feminist, so no feminist can really believe in "genuine trans" in my opinion, only in "feminine" men and "masculine" women.

"They are not and are not intending to be porn stars"

Seriously? That is what you got from my post?

I didn't say that your relative wants to be a porn star. I said that your claim that HRT shrinks the penis to a "very very small" state is demonstrably false. And as evidence, I said that you can check out any porn website where you will see normal-sized erect penises on transwomen with feminine body shapes and rather impressive boobs.

As a RL example, you can also check out the prostitute Tara Hudson's boasting of their "seven-inch surprise". Not what I would call "very very small", personally.

I am told that a study has shown that men's brains and women's brains are wired up differently, and that a study has shown that people who want to transgender have the brain of the sex they want to be

This is absolutely untrue.

You cannot be born in the wrong body. However you absolutely can feel that you are in the wrong body, suffer profound distress and - in some cases - be happier if you live as if a member of the opposite biological sex. One of the many problems with the TRA movement is that it shuts down debate about the best way to relieve the deep distress of gender dysphoria - we are not allowed to discuss any option other than transition, despite many trans people reporting that this has not helped them.

canijustsay there is no evidence for inherent sex based brain differences. Trans activists point to small studies to say there are differences, but their results can't be replicated. Meta analysis of published research has found nothing.

Being transgender now is a broad umbrella, including gender dysphoric individuals who take hormones and have surgery, through to bearded men who simply say they identify as women, and fetishistic cross dressers. Once the law changes, there will be no requirement for medical assessment, all a man will have to do is say he identifies as a woman and he legally will be one. There will also be no exceptions in the Equality Act to allow women to meet and provide services on,y for those born women.

It's frankly terrifying, and I don't care whose feelings that hurts.

canijustsaysomethingplease

Googling how many transwoman have autogynephilia will bring you exactly the same results that it brings anyone else.

I realise having a transperson in your family is very difficult. I have no doubt that there are genuine trans-people. I have said that over and over.

But they are also being marginalised and criticised, along with women. The trans-activists have got hold of this and are turning it into something very different.

Spend a short time online to get perspective.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard's_transsexualism_typology

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/what-many-transgender-activists-dont-want-you-to-know-and-why-you-should-know-it-anyway/amp/

alicedreger.com/autogyn

And absolutely! The children should be no-where near this.

Datun, link the statistics?!!!

I was saying that the children might find the comments to be difficult.

The person in my family is now in a relationship with a man, not that that means anything in terms of statistics.