General Trans Discussion Thread

Surely sexuality is as divorced from the nonsense of "gender" as biology is?

Yes it is. And children should be allowed to be GNC. Sometimes early trans signs are just latent homosexuality/bisexuality playing out. Sometimes it's gender dysphoria. Sometimes it's just kids being kids.

Children do express gender from young ages. But you can't be certain a child is trans at that age in anyway. The current treatment protocol is only to start a child on puberty blockers when they hit tanner stage two if appropriate for the child (i.e. severe cases). Gillick competency plays into this as well. Before that any exploration of gender is purely social transition and totally reversible (other than maybe a few awkward family photos...).

And despite rumours to contrary there are children that go on blockers that don't transition.

Toy preference or even clothing preference isn't an indication of gender preference. It's an indication the child likes dresses, guns or sparkles.

Hormones and surgeries don't happen on the NHS until 18 at least, despite what the Daily Mail wants you to believe. Unless of course you find a private doctor or go overseas.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Mostly Yes. My beautiful sister was a "tomboy" - a leader, not interested in frills and pink shit, troubled (I think) by her physical development in adolescence, boyish in her physique, not interested in babies etc. I remember a friend's mother saying of her once, "She'd better get a boyfriend or she'll turn out butch ."

Now she is a stunning woman who rarely wears skirts or makeup but is unmistakeably female in appearance, slim, stylish, and in a wonderfully happy relationship with a man (and she does all the cooking and he does all the DIY).

I agree, Jilly. I was a gender non-conforming child - I actually grew up straight. I don't know how the figures break down, but I know a heck of a lot of boy toddlers who love pink and sparkles - because, when you're 3, what's not to like about pink and sparkles? And drills let you make things which is fun, and playing pirates is adventurous.

I have a genuine question about this. Wasn't sure where to post it so I've picked this thread.

I'm Spartacus. But I have an issue with something that comes up a lot on trans threads. People say: boys/girls display preferences in childhood for stuff associated with the opposite gender. But they're not trans, they're just gay. I can totally see that there is reduction in the harm that could potentially be done to a child by letting them be, express their personality and preferences in whatever way they like as they grow up. I agree with that.

But if we believe (as I do) that gender is a social construct, isn't it equally problematic to say that a boy who likes pink and sparkes is going to grow up to be a gay man, and a girl who likes drills and pirates is going to grow up to be a butch lesbian? Surely sexuality is as divorced from the nonsense of "gender" as biology is?

user1472515172

It's so illogical and biased when you bat it back, isn't it?

If someone isn't behaving appropriately in any kind of space they should be capable of being called out (and frankly thrown out).

Cool - so when men in men's toilets/showers/changing rooms behave inappropriately towards trans women using those spaces, the trans women can call them out and get them thrown out. Problem solved.

ATransMum wrote - "You do realise that trans men can get lower surgery as well, giving them a penis?"

No, surgery does not give a transman a penis. Transmen can have something that only looks similar to a penis.

The whole pronoun thing, I find a bizarre logical deadend.

I'm not sure I can properly articulate it but the "My Pronoun" thing, I just can't get my head around.

I don't have a specific pronoun that I think of as mine. There is a pronoun that is usually used in relation to me, which is She because I am mostly identified as female (which I am) and it causes me no angst because I have no resistance to the idea of being identified as female. But I don't identify myself as female to others, they use the term that best fits their perception of me. Their perception of me is entirely their business. I can do things to steer their perception of my sex in the same way that as an overweight person, I can dress in flattering ways, cut my hair in a flattering way, don't slouch etc to steer their perception of me into one of 'slim person' but if I am ultimately perceived as fat, I have not been misidentified (however much I might not enjoy the descriptor). I get that if you have resistance to being identified as the sex you are, then the use of the correct pronoun must me jarring but it's not actual assault though is it?

That said, I would have no problem with calling someone the opposite pronoun if they asked me too, but outside of anybody's immediate social circle how is that supposed to work? How would anybody know how to refer to a stranger, do we need badges or apps or hand signals? Is accidental misgendering still a hate crime? Even if the person has asked you previously to use a different pronoun and you forget, is that "hate"? Is it now hateful to not have other people's identity at the forefront of your mind at all times?

And googling 'transman attacks woman' brings up nothing.

ATrans - you're missing the point, and in that, proving that you don't belong in women's toilets, because if you can't respect boundaries, then you have potential to be dangerous.

Again. It's an honour system. We trust you to know if you are male or female, and use an appropriate changing/toiletting facility. It's not hard. If you find it tricky to decide, then avoid the one that discomforts and endangers women please.

Also, yes, FTT can have bottom surgery. It doesn't work the same way as a conventional penis though - they'd have to be very determined to rape me, and would be completely unable to get me pregnant (I imagine passing on STDs is rather trickier too)

It's largely why my compassion keeps disappearing up the swanny.

I read a blog and it comes back again. Then I get re-involved in the bathroom debate and off it shoots.

how someone can have a penis but claim to be a woman? It doesn't add up to me.

Actually.. it seems to me no people with penises should ever be allowed in a woman's toilet or woman's space at all.

I practically give myself an eye-roll injury every-time I hear it.

As a women who has 'called out' creepy behaviour, had it dismissed and minimised, to then have the behaviour escalate and turn into an assault (which was also dismissed and minimised), this shit really boils my piss.

It really is shocking when a man wants to be a woman but has no idea at ALL.

If I hear one more time that of COURSE if someone behaves badly in your space then you just kick them out...

If someone isn't behaving appropriately in any kind of space they should be capable of being called out (and frankly thrown out). Irrespective of what they are wearing or what gender they are or claim to be.

Silly old us, forgetting that we could just "call out" men who are behaving inappropriately our presence. Because historically, it never put us in physical danger to do so. We've never been accused of lying or exaggerating about these things and lucky for us, almost all men fess up straight away and promise to behave themselves from here on in. Never deny or gaslight. Never accuse us of making it up, being crazy or vexatiously accuse us of provoking or victimising them. Nope, never.

Which is lucky really or else women would really be in the shitter if men could all of a sudden "call out" our "call out" as a hate crime. Phew, disaster averted.

If anyone has used a public restroom in the U.S. then they will now that they are not private at all. Last week I was waiting outside the cubicle while my DD age 4 was inside and I could clearly see in through the huge gap down the side of the door. It's a voyeurs dream tbh. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities like this with males, no matter how they claim to identify. The idea that some predatory men won't take advantage is laughable and shows a complete lack of concern for women

I posted this interview on another thread, but realise not everyone on this is posting on that one too

You don't lose this right. You should never lose this right. This is exactly why I said show respect.

This is how it's always worked. But it doesn't now.

Post op or pre op makes no difference. Men should be excluded. And suggesting there is a difficulty in proving sex doesn't mean the concept is just abandoned. If it's just 'a place to pee' why can't you use the already existing accessible loos? Don't bother answering, it's because you might get targeted. By men.

Maybe that one doesn't have a dick (anymore)?

No! No dicks in female spaces. That's it

So post op trans women are fine but non op trans women aren't fine?

How do you tell them apart exactly?!?

I think most women just don't want to lose the right to challenge a creepy looking/behaving male (whether or not he's wearing a dress) in the loo/changing room whatever

You don't lose this right. You should never lose this right. This is exactly why I said show respect.

If someone isn't behaving appropriately in any kind of space they should be capable of being called out (and frankly thrown out). Irrespective of what they are wearing or what gender they are or claim to be.

I'm all for protecting individuals, don't ever mistake that. And I don't want weirdos watching or listening to me pee any more than you do. (I'm sure there is some weird sub-reddit dedicated to watching trans women pee somewhere and I'm sure as hell not going looking or it).

@ChocChocPorridge

Yes, there was outrage by a few SJW types. And the ban was overturned (proving my point, somewhat). Some trans women find drag offensive. Just like some women do, ironically.

You do realise that trans men can get lower surgery as well, giving them a penis? And that some trans women equally don't have one?

My question would be who exactly is going to inspect the contents of everyone's knickers to find out what they have before letting them into the correct bathroom?