woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

atrans

Couldnt i do both

Say sorry sweetheart but at the moment medicine isnt good enough to completely change sex but we will do whatever we can to get you as close as we can if thats what you really want to do and maybe medicine will catch up one day

'You have no frame of reference for this if you aren't trans '

Well, yes I do. Sorry.

I have a frame of reference including a surprising amount of personal distress at my own female physicality that I had kind of left behind until I started a peripheral kind of work in this field, huge cuts in CAMHS, exponential rises in personal visibility and expectations that you will put yourself physically on show (men and women) in ways that have never happened before, huge rises in visibility of transitioning as a process, and huge levels of violence and body shaming that is very gendered - and I'll actually say that both sexes get this, in different ways. I have a frame of reference including living with someone with both a severe mental health diagnosis and consequent treatment for it, which together have huge physical and sexual effects, so the idea that THIS thing over here is mental and THAT thing over there is physical and never the twain shall meet and it's a huge insult to be told that something has a psychological element... I know, for certain, that this is nonsense. If you are telling me that transition has absolutely nothing to do with people in huge distress finding their personal path through that distress, I would say that you are wrong. Where I would perhaps agree with you is that transition can actually be an effective path through that distress. And it says some pretty grim things about our society that there is an epidemic of people who have to almost leave their previous bodies behind to find peace.

Let me put this another way.

Your AFAB child says 'I want to be a boy'. Consistently, persistenly, over several years, and is self harming and has attempted suicide because they are going through puberty and does't want their breasts to grow any more.

You can:

a) Tell them they can't change sex.
b) Listen to them and talk to agencies like Tavistock about the right options

Which one do you think gives the child the best medical chance and quality of life?

ATransMum
"Some people are trans, get over it"

No-one is denying the existence of trans folk. Everyone is saying that men can dress/do/present as they like, ditto women, and that is absolutely fine.

People do object to to the lie that people can change sex, they cannot.

People also quite rightly question the wisdom of transing children, which at the extreme end results in sterilisation.

Surely these are not extreme views?

And I absolutely agree that some people are transgender. But they're not, and can never be, the opposite sex.

You quoted Paris Lees and said she's usually 'spot on'? I just lost all respect.

Cancer exists though?

^'peddling the myth that a male can become a female

Has a chromosomal replacement surgery been Invented?

Also read this:

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/trans-people-tabloid-punching-bag

Paris is pretty spot on with all of this right now (as she usually is...).

*I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

What threads have you been reading? Please link*

links back most of mumsnet

Just on this page you have:

^'peddling the myth that a male can become a female'
'mutilating them and making them sterile'^

Saying:
'Nobody's denying that dysphoria exists or that there are people that don't conform to their gender'
and
'the dissonance between someones gender and sex will always be profound in people who believe that they can become the opposite sex'
is like saying 'cancer is real' so 'just stop believing in cancer and you'll be better'. You might as well be saying 'just pray the trans away'.

That kind of advice is unhelpful, not medically relevant and could well pollute the minds of a parent. It's like prescribing homeopathy for cancer patients - it doesn't work.

Unfortunately when the vast majority of people who do transition experience significantly better outcomes (measured in quality of life terms, suicide/self harm rates, mental health etc.), when people who are supported by their families and wider society during that transition experience significantly lower incidence of self harm and suicide attempts and when detransition rates and so-called transition regret is crazily low you kind of find it hard to argue that maybe the problem is 'believing you can change sex'.

Sources:
pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958.abstract
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24275005
link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11136-013-0497-3
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23574768
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22145968
www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/trans_mh_study.pdf

But hey, those are cold, hard facts from various research done recently and internationally (not some widely debunked Swedish research paper oft quoted by the anti-trans lobby). Do your own thinking here people.

But please, carry on telling me how abolishing gender will make GNC and potentially trans kids better when all they want is their body to be more inline with the way they feel.

You have no frame of reference for this if you aren't trans so please stop trying to tell other people how they think. I am trans, I work with trans people and trans children. Mermaids probably isn't the perfect shiny rainbow unicorn charity you hope it might be, and they probably get things wrong from time to time because it's run by people. And people aren't perfect.

Trans kids need support, they need the chance to explore their gender in a comforting and supportive environment. Equally their parents need the right advice and guidance as well as support so their kids can lead happy lives and make the right choices. That choice may involve puberty blockers, hormones and surgery at the appropriate point. Doing 'nothing' is not always the right option. The 'right point' is open to debate and probably variable with the individual as well. Tavistock are usually pretty spot on although significantly overworked.

So please rather than trying to villify a charity for your own personal agendas and beliefs how about actually trying to support them and the children being affected by this. I'm already noticing a significant increase in worry for parents of trans children around this judgement and various issues falling out from it, and that needs to be addressed in the right way, not with more 'oh you can't change sex' codswallop.

Some people are trans, get over it.

No, I agree and am thoroughly grateful to hear that this is not an easy process and the fact that now everyone seems to be on the same page about no one younger than 18 can start the process of surgery. I think that's right. For me, all options would be explored and the most final procedure would be the very very very last road I took. I remember when I was younger wanting a hysterectomy because I never wanted children at all. Had I have done so, I wouldn't have my 4 wonderful minis around me and in hindsight would have absolutely regretted my decision. Thankfully, it's a procedure that is very hard to get done incase you change your mind, however a friend of mine did manage it and has never once regretted the decision. This is why I believe the child needs to be deemed old enough (ie at an adult age) for a very severe decision to be carried out. I was just merely suggesting that in the CEOs case, based upon what I read from the daughters own account, they seemed to have made the right choices - thankfully.

In my case, I'm lucky enough to know that my child is just hugely confused and so decisions like these certainly will not need to be explored for quite some time yet. It obviously is a worry about when a child is confused but the parent can be swept along with trying to do what they think is the right thing. That is why I would have thought there would be safeguardings in place to prevent extreme measures, and if there isn't, maybe there should be? In the report, it was clearly obvious from all the official bodies the mother spoke to, that she was the one pushing the child into a gender box. I also think, official diagnoses should be made from fully trained people, with both the parents and child being seen separately. From the report of that child, this was not the case as she refused CAHMS and ignored Tavistocks advice. They have started to do seperate assessments under the Autistic Spectrum and think that this has really given a clearer indication of the child and their needs.

Datun

Susie Green is quoted in the DM (sorry!) as saying:

‘As a toddler, Jackie always headed for the dolls in toy shops. Initially, I did think it was a phase but Jack, as she was then, became disruptive in class, ran away from school, loathed having her hair cut and would rip off her school uniform and put on girls’ clothes when she got home.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2235781/Jackie-Green-Transgender-beauty-queen-praises-amazing-family-ahead-BBC-documentary.html

I still think it's very odd that you can tell a boy is gay at 18 months. How exactly? His sexual preference ??!

"I think to self mutilate your private areas..."
We're talking sterilization of a child here, a procedure that UK doctors advised against AFAIK, and which is illegal here, and now is in Thailand as well, for a damn good reason. After all, doctors are in many cases unwilling to sterilize perfectly healthy, sound in mind adults who know exactly what they want (i.e. no more kids!).

Just being grateful that in this case (unlike others, see gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/uks-youngest-transgender-patient-seeks-to-reverse-sex-change/ ) the right decision seems to have been made is not really enough. We have to have procedures in place that protect children not just from themselves, but from parents who think they are doing the best thing for their child as well. Although Rihanna Cooper seems to have reversed her earlier decision to go back to being a gay man...............This is hardly a glowing endorsement for the validity of transition before maturity (mental and physical).

I've just been reading up on Susie Greens daughter, and based upon her account, it certainly seems her daughter was very sure that she of who she was. Based upon what I have read, which really is all I can go on, it does appear that they made the right decision and it appears it was led by the child herself. I think to self mutilate your private areas at an age that gender shouldn't be noted, is highly inductive that she was aware she was "in the wrong body". Would I have allowed surgery at such a young age? I don't think I would, but not being in that situation I can't honestly put my hand on heart on say i wouldn't if it really was apparent that my child was very sure, especially before the hormones of puberty have really set in. What did concern me was more that the nursery rand Susie Green to ask if it was okay that her daughter wear a Snow White outfit. I've got several photos of my youngest dressed in several variants of fairy princesses from nursery, and yet not once did they ask my opinion or permission, nor should they have as it is very natural for a child to explore and like what they like at that moment in time. It's what playing and make believe is all about and part of childhood! I think it's very telling how Susie Greens daughter is a confident and happy person and shows this was the right decision for her individual child, in my opinion.

Now this is very very different to what I have read in that report. The report reads of emotional abuse, based on the mothers dislike of her ex partner. Whilst googling, I came across another story of a 5 year old child where the mother is adamant he want to be a she, but the father suggests differently based upon how the child is in other places other than the mothers home. Apparently in this case, the mother started dressing the child as a she from 2 1/2. Again, this is all based upon media findings so I can't be aware of the full stories, but these cases are seemingly where the child is confused but is being led by the parents decisions and therefore drastic measures of name changing, hormone blockers, surgery etc etc needs to be held off or indeed dealt with in the smallest of steps to enable the child to grow into who THEY want to be , with the right support for them to do so.

The research shows that young peoples with gender dysphoria are 10x more likely to self harm than the average population.

Please link said research.

I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

What threads have you been reading? Please link

Not mini England, Miss England. Don't let anyone say being trans is all about appearance, eh

Apparently susie green's daughter has a boyfriend. She also entered mini England. I'm not sure if she won or not.

Can someone clarify about Mermaid's CEO's child?

Born a boy, she knew he was gay at 18 months. At 16 he changed to a girl? If he is now dating boys, then he's not gay now? If he's dating girls then he wasn't gay at 18 months but is now?

Anyone ???

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

Good post.

I think because there ARE invasive alternatives out there at the click of a button, making a choice suddenly becomes a desperate decision with a deadline.

I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

Are you talking about us, here on this thread on Mumsnet? If you are then you have not understood posters concerns. It's not about disallowing children to live and be who they want. It's about peddling the myth that a male can become a female. Nobody's denying that dysphoria exists or that there are people that don't conform to their gender. Anyone can present how they like, but it's understanding that the dissonance between someones gender and sex will always be profound in people who believe that they can become the opposite sex. There will always be the dissatisfaction that they are not a natal male/female. It's allowing and helping people, especially children who are still learning who they are, the time and space to become comfortable with themselves and their bodies without the need for invasive surgery and hormones.

My child is also self harms and is suicidal, but none of us (whomever i spoke to at mermaids on numerous occasions, NSPCC, CAHMS, other health professionals etc) think it's down to being transgender but a more underlying issue that we are trying to explore.

FWIW, I've thought this thread has actually been a very interesting and sensible debate

For what it's worth, self harming is not confined to gender nonconforming children or trans-children. Amongst my son's teenage peergroup there are an alarming number of girls who self harm and post selfies. All of whom are very definitely 'cis'.

It was unheard of in my day.

Hanora50, I'm not painting a bleak picture of Mermaids at all. I said that there are many nice people on there. I was always told to follow my child's lead. But when I brought up (at a residential) that although I supported my child, I was having difficulty 'seeing' them in the gender they now identified in, I was told that if I could afford it I should go private to get them on cross sex hormones which would then start making my child look more like their 'new' gender. A bit drastic don't you think?
And yes I am lucky my child doesn't self-harm. I have another child that chronically cut and they were cis. The Tavistock as well as a member from our local LGBTQ group both said that as long as a child is supported the incidences of self-harm and attempted suicide are not as scarily high as 'some' groups may say.

the people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be

No, they aren't. Have you actually read any of the many threads on this subject? Because it really doesn't sound like it.