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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
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MrsJamin · 22/10/2016 10:06

Yeah mermaids are not taking this lying down (see here) - their response that the judge has split up a happy family is terrifying. How do they not see the abuse? So blinkered.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 10:03

I also read the bit about the child's inappropriate touching and his explanation to his father that he didn't like his genitals 'wobbling' and words to the effect that his mother didn't like her bits wobbling either, and that she had "a big fat sandwich".

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 10:01

Yes, after my reading I agree re the judge.

iPost "I fully expect a significant wodge of transactivists to run in the main with a "this is a transphobic, bigoted ruling !!" stance. Not least to cover the back of Mermaids, whose position is looking well wobbly in light of the ruling".

I'd happening! See Mermaids' Twitter account and also the change.org petition.

EnidColeslaw771 · 22/10/2016 10:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beebeeeight · 22/10/2016 09:56

There will bea lot more cases like this imo.

Hopefully when these damaged kids start to successful sue the NHS/ clinics/ mermaids/ local authorities attitudes and policies and the law will change.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/10/2016 09:56

I agree re the judge. The mention of "boy's things" was simply to show that when left to his own devices the boy did not fixate on "girl's things". It was his mother who was claiming he had a natural inclination for "girl's things" because he was a girl.

She sounds a total nightmare.

iPost · 22/10/2016 09:55

agree that in a few years there will be a raft of abuse cases over similar

Yes. And this judgement might be oft pointed to in order to underline the potential for numerous, independent opportunities to halt parental abuse being not only missed, but actively shut down. By the very professionals who were supposed to be looking out for the child's interests.

Which is going to be expensive if other children are in similar circumstances, but don't have another parent forcing the issue of a closer look at the child's needs and realities. I can't see future compensation for a former child (presenting themselves as a mutilated, sterilised male/female, sacrificed on the alter of anti-transphobia) being peanuts. Plus too the cost of the god awful PR gov. agencies will have to manage. And all the inquiries. Inquiries of inquires. Scapegoat sackings, then compensation for "convient scapegoat" sackings. And so it rolls on.

Not that I personally think cost is the priority in contexts of this nature. But it does tend to be a motivator for those with the power to enforce a more investigative, less "accept at face value" protocol in cases where there are assertions that a minor is trans, or has presented as trans, since they were tiny.

Which will potentially have a knock on effect on how red flags are managed in cases where a minor is deemed trans at a later stage, post puberty.

I don't see this as the final nail in the coffin of the "if somebody (large or small) says they are trans, they are trans, full stop, no discussion" mindset.

However it is a nail.

Because that judgement is a sobering read. If in this, of all cases, professionals chose to shut down red flags and alarm bells..... then there must be the potential for cases where the parent was more subtle, less evidently "off" and unencumbered by the irritant of a NRP focrcing the non action of social services into the light, via a courtroom.

I fully expect a significant wodge of transactivists to run in the main with a "this is a transphobic, bigoted ruling !!" stance. Not least to cover the back of Mermaids, whose position is looking well wobbly in light of the ruling.

That's another nail.

Because it will underline the extent to which ideology may have become far far more of a priority than a real life kid at the sharp end of intentional, or non intentional, parental abuse. Plus it raises the spectre of parents, who want to help their child, potentially being left wide open to being advised, guided, perhaps even indoctrinated, by ideologues.

LittlePaintBox · 22/10/2016 09:51

Anyone who is concerned about this should really read the judgement. The judge has drawn on a number of different professional opinions to reach a conclusion that social services were unwilling to reach - that the child was being damaged by his mother's obsession. There are also many examples of the mother lying to, and manipulating, the professionals involved. E.g. she stated that the Tavistock Clinic had recommended 'stealth transing' the child, so that nobody knew he was not a girl. The judge asked to see the Tavistock Clinic records to check this out, the mother refused permission for these to be released. The judge notes that, while the father had equal parental rights to authorise this, everyone did what the mother wanted. When the records were eventually seen, they made no mention of stealth transing. There seems to be no question of this child having been allowed to explore or determine his own identity. That is what the judge is concerned about. If anyone has misgendered this child, it's the mother.

comehomemax · 22/10/2016 09:46

The mother dismissed any concerns raised by the school saying it was because they are Catholic and implying that meant they were transphobic on this issue. The authorities again accepted this despite the judges view that the school had made a very strong case in raising their concerns and was a good example if correct safeguarding procedures.

Was it Brighton council that have a school form that asks how children identify at a similar young age? It's very concerning because that might, in this case, have resulted in the school suppressing its concerns about emotional harm.

MrsJamin · 22/10/2016 09:35

Mermaids are a dangerous organisation. I wonder whether in years to come there will be a huge group of people who group together to sue mermaids/social services for the damage done to them by being trans-ed as children. If they continue on to medical interventions this leads to infertility, mental health issues and other serious problems of taking synthetic hormones for years,which can lead to premature death.

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 22/10/2016 09:32

It really isn't a lazy judgement. The judge is very clear that this is not actually a case about gender nonconformity at all; it's a case about a mother who has sought to utterly control her son's identity and has not allowed him to be his own person at all. The fact that the child makes very different choices where he is given any space to decide himself (at school and at his father's house) is simply evidenced of that.

The fact that the mother was fixated in gender identity (as opposed to illness or anything else) is actually a bit of a red herring. The only notable thing about it is that the mother's particular fixation aligned with a particularly powerful orthodoxy that meant the social workers were unwilling to challenge her. If she'd been insisting he was unwell, they'd have been completely willing to challenge her but not when she insisted he was actually a girl.

It's a bit like the thread about the poor woman who's worried she can't challenge someone who regularly and purposefully transgresses her (and others') personal boundaries because he's loudly identifying according to the same orthodoxy. Both are very dangerous situations.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 09:21

I've read the judgement. For me, these are the pertinent passages (bolding mine);

"When all this is properly analysed it is clear that flares of concern were being sent from a whole raft of multi disciplinary agencies. Each was signalling real anxiety in respect of this child's welfare. Whilst it is, I suppose, conceivable that these referrals were considered individually, it is impossible to draw any inference other than that they were never evaluated collectively. When they were drawn to the attention of Lucy Davidson, the senior social worker, who now has conduct of this case, she said in her evidence 'is it is difficult to justify some of the decision-making that took place'. That was a measured and careful response. She was not pressed further. However it does not, in my judgement, go far enough. This local authority has consistently failed to take appropriate intervention where there were strong grounds for believing that a child was at risk of serious emotional harm. I propose to invite the Director of Children's Services to undertake a thorough review of the social work response to this case. Professional deficiencies to this extent cannot go unchecked, if confidence in this Local Authority's safeguarding structures is to be maintained.

I am afraid to say that I can only describe the conclusions of the section 37 report as entirely lacking in any logical, coherent analysis. I have found it quite impossible to understand why so many concerns were disregarded so summarily. Neither the senior social worker in this case nor the lawyer who acts on the Authority's behalf have sought to advance any explanation.

Not only are the conclusions of the report irreconcilable with the core information within it but it is striking that the Local Authority had moved into wholesale acceptance that J should be regarded as a girl. Once again, I make no apology for repeating the fact that J was still only 4 years of age. The conclusions of the report speak of J by use of the feminine pronoun. There was no independent or supportive evidence that J identified as a girl at all, indeed there was a body of material that suggested the contrary. The cry for investigation went unheeded:

23.5. The Local Authority have received a large number of referrals where concerns have been raised in relation to [J] presenting as a girl rather than concerns in relation [J]'s welfare and the care that is provided to [J]. It is evident that some agencies do not have a full understanding of gender non conforming children and have therefore contacted Children's Service, sometimes when they have not met [J]. This clearly frustrates [M] and leaves her feeling that she is unsupported, and has caused her to feel stressed and anxious. Therefore [M] mistrusts professionals which is often interpreted as that she is unwilling to engage with services. "

The two remaining passages of the conclusion make very disheartening reading indeed. They combine both naivety and professional arrogance. Concerns were dismissed on the basis that it was the other agencies who 'did not have a full understanding of gender non-conforming children'. In fact it was Ms Jenkins and her senior managers whose understanding was lacking.

23.7. In all my dealings with the family there has been no evidence of risk of harm to [J]. However the impact of ongoing disputes between parents is likely to cause a risk of emotional harm to [J] and it is hoped this will be resolved as a result of these court proceedings."

"23.8. In addition, the manner in which [J]'s gender identity is responded to by professionals could also cause emotional difficulties, as had been evidenced in research around gender non conforming children cited earlier. It appears that [M] is genuinely attempting to protect [J] from the impact of this. While there is clear evidence that [M] has on occasion declined support and challenged professionals, she is able to explain these decisions and as a parent does have a right to select the services she feels are best for her child. She has accessed support from services such as Housing Support, [Local Charity] and the Tavistock Centre, and advises that she is seeking out education provision for [J] at the present time."

As the proceedings before Judge Penna progressed there developed a prevailing orthodoxy that J identified as a girl. Though I suspect the father continued to have his doubts, he had been unable to secure contact with his son and, driven to rely on others, I think began to assume that so many professionals having accepted that J was presenting as a girl, they must be correct".

My reading of the judgement was that the transnarrative was so strong that many (especially social workers and others in similar social care roles) were either swept up in the orthodoxy, or scared to counter it. Those who did provide an alternative viewpoint were schools / teachers, and they were ignored.

This fills me with embarrassment (because I am connected with the social care professions) and fear. I can honestly see this happening and workers either drinking the mother's cool-aid, being too scared to challenge it, or simply not giving a damn.

I am so angry at the transactivists and their rule by fear. They are nasty bullies who patrol an orthodoxy that silences dissent and will ultimately hurt children. I see Mermaids have come out in support of the mother and are writing an 'open letter'. I wonder if they have even read the judgement? Hopefully, this will make them look very silly.

Kennington · 22/10/2016 08:34

This is in all the papers.
I agree that in a few years there will be a raft of abuse cases over similar.
It is pushing sex on prepubescent children. If this was in any other context it would be classed as a SS issue immediately.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 08:27

Obviously, the judge did the right thing, but it does reinforce the point that both the transactivists and the conservatives are in bed together over what constitutes 'proper' masculinity and feminity, leaving those of us who are gender critical out in the cold.

iPost - great point and I am off to read the judgement right now ...

iPost · 22/10/2016 00:19

For any other child in similar circumstances whose father.....

-gave up after years of hitting professional brick walls

or

  • wasn't that invested in the first place

where exactly would the mother have hit a barrier in pushing forward a trans future for her child ?

Before puberty blockers ?

Before replacement hormones ?

Before body altering surgery ?

Or after all of it?

This kid had a dad prepared to go to considerable lengths. For a very extended period of time. In the face of outright opposition to his presence in his child's life from a professional making an assessment of the family.

A system will fail children, horrendously, if the only profound examination of what's what relies on an alienated parent showing incredible tenacity in what must have felt like a protracted losing battle.

If nothing else, given the above, the high stakes if they get it wrong and the judges remarks (about professionals' unwillingness to confront and enter into conflict with a growing orthodoxy)... maybe there will be more focus on a child's needs, and less of a priority placed on a professional adult's (understandable) desire not to be called a bigot.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 21/10/2016 23:27

I think the judge's comments about 'boys' stuff' simply reflect that the wee lad is probably overdosing on the things he's not been allowed to experience till now, and the judge sees that as a positive that the dad is being led by the boy. In the same way as a thread about restricting DCs access to sugary foods will lead to them gorging themselves on chocolate as soon as they can go to the shops by themselves.

Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:23

I've just tried searching for my old thread but I can't find it. Possibly posted in chat.

It wasn't the only incident with the family at all, from what I remember the mum insisted on breastfeeding the boy/girl whilst sitting on the pavement with her breast fully out of her top. And i'm a hardcore extended breastfeeder so that isn't coming from a place of ignorance, it was all very strange. She was in her own little world.

ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:18

There's so much potential for abuse in this trans kids stuff

ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:17

Exactly Bombadier! How do they tell the difference? And what's the difference anyway?

Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:17

But I wonder if the boy really did think she was a girl. She had been dressed and referred to as a girl from a baby. Maybe he fooled mermaids, maybe the mum taught him to say he was distressed by his penis? who knows.

Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:15

I remember her taking her child to see a psychologist privately and mermaids when people were making complaints to the HV/SS. I remember her talking about it.

I'm not sure how much I can say because obviously its all anonymous! But I did read it in the paper earlier and the 'girl' i know would be about 7/8 now.

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 23:12

and they are....?

OP posts:
ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:12

If it's the same family it's disturbing that the mother has been supported in this odd behaviour by mermaids. You'd think they'd only support genuine trans children...

Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:07

Theres too many ribbons/shiny shoes in that post! But that was honestly the most striking thing about them. They dressed quite old fashioned but very girly girly, lots of plaits and ribbons in bows.

I had a thread on her years ago about them and then someone else came on who also knew the same family! It all got a bit strange.

Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:04

I've name changed for this as I think I know this family (unless there are two with strikingly similar backgrounds). Disclaimer that the family I know may not be the same one but ages and circumstances are the same.

I first met this family when the 'girl' was only 12 mths old. The mother was already dressing the child in 'girls' clothes, she had bows in her hair, shiny red patent shoes, very feminised.

I didn't actually realise the child was a boy until he was about 2 and another mother told me she had seen the mum changing his nappy. By this point the child was in 'girls' clothes, very long hair and had a unisex name.

Around 3/4 the mother was more open about the fact he was a boy but insisted he was distressed by this and wanted to be a girl, always chose girls clothes, toys etc. I knew this wasn't true as had seen the boy as a baby. She was reported quite a few times by different mothers/play group leaders but nothing ever happened.

The last time I saw them was maybe two years ago walking down the road and the boy was in a full dress, ribbons in his hair etc.

The mum was always quite a strange woman, very feminised but not in the usual way. Almost like a little girl. She wore long ribbons in her hair, pigtails and shiny patent shoes like a child.

If this is the same family then i'm glad something has been done as it was the most bizarre situation. The mum would never be drawn on where the father was other than to say they weren't together.

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