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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
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khaddy123 · 31/10/2016 20:52

I just want to point out that Mermaids offer a valuable service of Advice and information and it is up to you as a family to do what is best for your child. To love and support them. Mermaids are an amazing Charity and I find these negative comments clearly come from people who need educating on the subject of transgender children. I am sure all parents wish it was a choice or a trend but its very real and something that clearly is not a choice.

JedRambosteen · 31/10/2016 20:51

Welcome to the influx of Mermaids committee members here to try and change our minds.

There's a term for this kind of lobbying (astroturfing?) and it is not attractive. I also think it is interesting that a pretty considered and thoughtful discussion about the judgement in this very specific case has been turned into a "me, me, me" discussion about Mermaids. Hmm

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2016 20:50

Yes littleducks I was really reminded of SP's tactics on here too.

It's like they think we're stupid and just need speaking to in calm but firm tones, with occasional "think of the children" emotional blackmail appeals thrown in.

Fuck off.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:43

Or perhaps Kids Company (remember them?)

littleducks · 31/10/2016 20:42

Mermaids will now forever be considered on par with Samaritan's Purse to me after these latest posts

annandale · 31/10/2016 20:37

Mermaids is just a group of parents, from all walks of life, who come together to support each other at a difficult and often frightening time in our lives.

TO RELIEVE THE MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STRESS OF ALL PERSONS AGED 19 YEARS AND UNDER WHO ARE IN ANY MANNER AFFECTED BY GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES, AND THERE FAMILIES, AND TO ADVANCE PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE SAME.

And there you are. I can't tell from these statements whether Mermaids recognises that parents supporting each other is not the same thing as working in the best interests of children. Also relieving mental and emotional stress in young people that you don't know that well requires quite a lot of expertise IMO, not to mention a lot of support for the people who are trying to do it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:15

Mermaids is just a group of parents, from all walks of life, who come together to support each other at a difficult and often frightening time in our lives.

If that was true, it would be fine. However, it appears that mermaids also presents themselves as the go to experts for anything trans, being quoted in the press, and running training courses etc. They also seem to diagnose kids as trans (and do parents ever get told, actually I think your child is not trans"?). They also and most worryingly as pubegardens says, continue to support a mother who's child was removed for abuse , abuse that was apparently not only condoned, but actively supported by Mermaids.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 31/10/2016 20:11

I'm appalled at the behaviour of Mermaids around this case.

If you are a charity whose stated aim is: TO RELIEVE THE MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STRESS OF ALL PERSONS AGED 19 YEARS AND UNDER WHO ARE IN ANY MANNER AFFECTED BY GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES, AND THERE FAMILIES, AND TO ADVANCE PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE SAME. (sorry for caps - C&P from Charities commision page) - and a high court judge questions whether you have acted in the best interests of a child, the first thing to do is reflect and review your policies and procedures and whether they are adequate for safeguarding the children of families who turn to you. You need to be prepared to accept that you might have got it wrong because any org is only made of human beings, all of whom make mistakes on occasion. You need to own up to and learn from your mistakes and improve your policies and procedures.

What you don't do is just yell transphobia and refuse to even countenance that the judge had a point. You don't let that dreadful Fox Fisher write that awful open letter in HuffPo - if the mother is barred from discussing her child's gender issues publicly (in the child's interests), what gives Fox the right? You don't doxx a former member of the charity because she says stuff you don't agree with.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent-led charity having paid staff per se. What I do think is wrong is presenting yourselves as something you are not - i.e. the go-to experts on gender issues in children when in fact you're a (totally unquestioning) support group for families. I've found iPost's posts really interesting, I can see how this has happened and it's not good.

I'd be inclined to report Mermaids to the Charity Commission but I know from experience it's very hard to get them interested in anything other than financial irregularities.

Tuba Flowers

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:10

The judge in this case has effectively gagged the Mum which has stopped her from being able to defend herself.

And stopped her raking her sad face to the DM and splashing her child over the media.

I personally and other members of Mermaids have known this family for 3 years.

And? Hardly unbiased.

There have been 2 independent assessments done by psychologists who work with gender variant children, both concluded that the child was very clear about who she was and was not being coerced in any way. Mum was supportive but not directing or causing the behaviour. The independent psychiatrist that the judge quotes also stated there is no evidence that the mum caused the gender identity issues.

Psychology like all medicine is not an exact science. Because a psychologist says something is so, does not make it truth. Others in the trial stated that the mother was coaching and pushing the child.

But that didn't get into the judgement. Why weren't the only NHS centre supporting children with gender identity issues not consulted on this case?

Because the mother would not engage with the Tavistock?

The Tavistock are clear that allowing a child to express their gender identity is not a child protection issue

That's because it is not. Transing a child who is not trans most definitely is.

Why did an anonymous allegation of smoking pot that has never been proven or substantiated and is clearly malicious make it into a court judgement?

To help build a picture?

The Mum was subjected to multiple malicious anonymous referrals to social services

As the child was removed from the mother I'd suggest that perhaps they weren't that malicious...

Schools are often unable or unwilling to accept gender issues in children and yet the Mum was criticised for removing the child due to bullying

She was criticised for removing her child from any sort of oversight from those who were (rightly) concerned about the child. See also the Tavistock which she wouldn't engage with.

She has been painted as a controlling and abusive character by events being depicted in such a way that makes her entirely understandable protectiveness seem extreme.

Her protectiveness was extreme. Refusal to engage with school/Tavistock etc is not a good sign?

It wasn't. I was party to meetings that were called without the Mums knowledge or participation, the clear disbelief from the school and GP that a child can express themselves and their assertion that it was the Mum. It wasn't.

When a parent is abusing their child, they are often not involved in discussions. I imagine it is the same for Munchausen's BP.

The child knows who they are. I can only imagine the bewilderment and distress she must be feeling now having being removed in the middle of the night and placed with a father she had not seen in 3 years, who the last time she saw him he was involved in an altercation with her Mum through the car window, the car that she was in.

I'm pretty sure the judgement said J was living perfect happy with his dad who was happy to let him be who he wanted to be.

Let's be clear here. Cross gender play and expression does not constitute gender dysphoria. Kids should be allowed to play with whatever they want without any conclusions being drawn. I love sponge bob, but that doesn't make me a boy.

Completely agree.

Most children are perfectly happy with their birth gender. But some are not. This child consistently and repeatedly asserted that she was a girl.

To his mother. There doesn't seem to be much evidence of them identifying as such to school/father etc

This Mum was undermined by professionals that had no experience or understanding of gender identity issues in children, so Mum protected her child and fought for recognition of her gender expression.

No. This mum was thankfully stopped by professionals who realised that J wasn't trans, and who stopped the mother before she caused too much damage.

The judge said the mum did not follow the Tavistock recommendations. This was because she decided that her 5 year old, who was happy, outgoing and confident, should not be subjected to appointments with a mental health professional who undoubtedly would know nothing about gender issues for no reason.

The Tavistock knows nothing about gender issues? And would not know how to sensitively work with a young child? Really? You don't find it at all concerning that the mother refused to follow recommendations from the one body in this case that might actually know what they are talking about?

The judgement states in one sentence that the child was isolated and not even registered with a GP, then in another line says she was registered as a girl.

They were removed from one GP, then registered at a new one as a girl. Mother covering her tracks, another worrying symptom.

Which is it? This child was home schooled, but was part of a local network of parents and children who met regularly and socialised well. Social services stated in a report that the home schooling Mum was providing was of a high standard.

Apart from the fact she was homeschooling because the school didn't agree J was trans. And apart from the fact she was trying to teach her boy that he was a girl.

The mother has very obvious mental health issues, hopefully she will now have the space and time to get some professional help.

Xenophile · 31/10/2016 20:09

To all the people sent to post from Mermaids:

If you honestly think that the only criticisms of your organisation I've seen are those on this thread then you are sadly mistaken.

The child was not taken away from the mother because she decided that they were transgender, they were taken away because there were long standing concerns of neglect and inappropriate sexual behaviour.

This is not about you. If you actually gave a damn about that child, you wouldn't be making it all about you. That you are tells me everything I need or want to know about your organisation.

darkages I wish you and your child every happiness.

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 31/10/2016 20:07

🍿

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2016 20:03

Welcome to the influx of Mermaids committee members here to try and change our minds.

You might find it's trickier than you had hoped.

Fourormore · 31/10/2016 20:03

I know what is documented - I have read it.

Confidential documents? Court documents?

kua · 31/10/2016 20:01

Good grief. Do you not realise how bad that has made the organisation appear! You don't need us to help you dig a hole you are happily doing it for yourselves.

Fourormore · 31/10/2016 19:59

What's that saying? None so blind as those that will not see?

FloraFox · 31/10/2016 19:58

I'm afraid I don't find the Mermaids statement very credible.

josiehervey · 31/10/2016 19:56

I would like to explain a bit about Mermaids following the article I have just read which paints a picture I do not recognise. I would hate for anyone to think that Mermaids is anything like it is described in that article and I want to tell you about it, and to explain why it keeps winning awards for its work as a charity.
Mermaids is just a group of parents, from all walks of life, who come together to support each other at a difficult and often frightening time in our lives.
When our 15-year-old finally found the courage to tell us she thought she must be transgender, we were terrified. We learned that she was having thoughts of suicide and was self-harming because she felt so horrified by her developing body and the future she saw stretching ahead of her in which she could never be herself or feel at peace. Our GP was lovely but admitted he had no idea how to help - it was from Mermaids we found information about the only specialist gender clinic in England which could help our child sort out her feelings.
On nights when we feared that she might not be with us by morning, parents from Mermaids shared stories with us about locking away blades and pills, and sitting up all night on suicide watch: we felt less alone. Other parents assured us that they had come through times like these, and could now see that their children are happily, healthily living authentic lives: we held onto the hope they offered us.
On days when our child felt too awful to leave the house, or even her room, Mermaids parents shared advice about how to make her more comfortable - a dad trained in male grooming shared tips on getting a really good shave, to avoid tell-tale stubble; mums shared their trial-and-error tales of shopping for underwear to give a smooth silhouette; others helped us find shops to buy large-sized shoes. It might sound trivial but it gave our child the courage to pick up her life again.
Later, when her school wanted to know how to help, they took advice from Mermaids not just about the law but about other simple things they could do. They worked together and with Mermaids' help, the teachers were almost as proud as we were when, despite all the lost time, our daughter passed her exams.
When things started to get better, and our daughter seemed to be coming back to life, I kept finding myself, randomly, in tears - in the car, in the shower, once in the supermarket. Nobody could understand it, least of all me - but other Mermaids mums and dads shared their own similar stories and helped me work through what was a kind of grief. Our child was still alive, but we grieved for the future of the child we had lost, and for the past that somehow seemed changed, now that we knew she had lived through secret years of unhappiness. Mermaids helped us see we were not alone.
I know that there are people who are not going to be kind to my daughter. While she looks halfway between a boy and a girl, there will be (have been) those who see a freak, to be mocked or avoided. If she ever comes to a point, some time in the future, where she 'passes' as a girl, the threat of violence will always be there from those who feel she is a 'trick' or a 'cheat' who somehow threatens their identity.
Parents of transgender children are just like any other parents who fear for their children. Please don't let people see Mermaids as something it is not

Unicornscanfly · 31/10/2016 19:55

I know what is documented - I have read it. Even a court cannot paint the full picture.
As for pushing my own agenda, what is that?
And as for castrating? I certainly don't want that for my child.
I can say that Mermaids was the ONLY place who could give advice when I looked for help. They've been extremely supportive and never pushy. Since I have been a member they have never asked parents or children to appear in the media, so I'm not sure where that nonsense came from.
Kids deserve to be happy this world of narrow mindedness.

kua · 31/10/2016 19:55

I did read the full judgement and once again you ( Mermaids) have stepped way over the legal line.

The judge "gagged" the mum from talking to the press ( she had a bbc interview lined up) in order to protect the identity and mental welfare of the child.

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2016 19:52

hanora forgive me if I believe the objective family judge rather than a member of an organisation which has been shown to be dubious at best.

Your organisation advocates sterilising healthy children.

We see you.

Hanora50 · 31/10/2016 19:47

Then judgement was biased and one sided

Mermaids statement last week. I thought it might help others understand some of the things that did not make the judgement.

The judge in this case has effectively gagged the Mum which has stopped her from being able to defend herself. I personally and other members of Mermaids have known this family for 3 years. There have been 2 independent assessments done by psychologists who work with gender variant children, both concluded that the child was very clear about who she was and was not being coerced in any way. Mum was supportive but not directing or causing the behaviour. The independent psychiatrist that the judge quotes also stated there is no evidence that the mum caused the gender identity issues. But that didn't get into the judgement. Why weren't the only NHS centre supporting children with gender identity issues not consulted on this case? The Tavistock are clear that allowing a child to express their gender identity is not a child protection issue. Why did an anonymous allegation of smoking pot that has never been proven or substantiated and is clearly malicious make it into a court judgement? The Mum was subjected to multiple malicious anonymous referrals to social services. Schools are often unable or unwilling to accept gender issues in children and yet the Mum was criticised for removing the child due to bullying. She has been painted as a controlling and abusive character by events being depicted in such a way that makes her entirely understandable protectiveness seem extreme.
It wasn't. I was party to meetings that were called without the Mums knowledge or participation, the clear disbelief from the school and GP that a child can express themselves and their assertion that it was the Mum. It wasn't. The child knows who they are. I can only imagine the bewilderment and distress she must be feeling now having being removed in the middle of the night and placed with a father she had not seen in 3 years, who the last time she saw him he was involved in an altercation with her Mum through the car window, the car that she was in.
Let's be clear here. Cross gender play and expression does not constitute gender dysphoria. Kids should be allowed to play with whatever they want without any conclusions being drawn. I love sponge bob, but that doesn't make me a boy. Most children are perfectly happy with their birth gender. But some are not. This child consistently and repeatedly asserted that she was a girl. This Mum was undermined by professionals that had no experience or understanding of gender identity issues in children, so Mum protected her child and fought for recognition of her gender expression.
The judge said the mum did not follow the Tavistock recommendations. This was because she decided that her 5 year old, who was happy, outgoing and confident, should not be subjected to appointments with a mental health professional who undoubtedly would know nothing about gender issues for no reason. The judgement states in one sentence that the child was isolated and not even registered with a GP, then in another line says she was registered as a girl. Which is it? This child was home schooled, but was part of a local network of parents and children who met regularly and socialised well. Social services stated in a report that the home schooling Mum was providing was of a high standard.
Do not believe everything you read in the papers. I personally know this family and it is heartbreaking to see the Mum made out to be some kind of controlling abusive parent when the truth is so very different.
And I really do love spongebob 💜

Datun · 31/10/2016 19:42

And being transgender or a parent of one is not a qualification.

Datun · 31/10/2016 19:40

I Can totally understand how Mermaids would be a godsend to a parent whose child is genuinely suffering from diagnosed gender dysphoria. The problem seems to be it's our way or the highway. They should stick with being a parent support group, not being a first point of call, lobbyists or experts in medical matters unless they are qualified.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/10/2016 19:38

and hadn't been in the child's life for years

That is so unfair. If you had bothered to read the judgement this father went to enormous lengths to stay in his son's life despite the obstacles put up by his mother

Fourormore · 31/10/2016 19:32

Oh dear. Another one who either hasn't read or hasn't understood the judgement.

The father is clearly acknowledged as allowing the child to be whatever gender he chooses. The child himself corrected. A teacher and said he was a boy. Evidence was used from the Tavistock Clinic. Are they not experts?
In what capacity are Mermaids considered "experts"? What qualifications do their members have? What peer reviewed research have they published?

The gagging order on the mother was purely to protect the child's privacy. Again, an entire judgement was made purely on this issue.

Things won't "add up" if you're closing your eyes to the facts in order to push your agenda.