DH is 'glad' of verdict

Basil, i think you're right. The kind of "this is how it is, accept it" idea. Also I think it's part of a wider idea generally that relationships should be saved at all costs, whereas I wouldn't be able to be friends with someone who thoughts as op partner does.

The more I think about this, the more I'm sure that if this was DH, it would be the beginning of the end. I'm not saying that's what the OP should do etc but it gets to me that much. I could not live with someone who thought I was worth less than them. I fucking HATE the pathetic bastards on my Facebook who are calling the victim a slag and saying she should be punished - those are my friend's husbands. REALLY. It's taking everything in me not to lose my shit. But it's everywhere isn't it? I saw a message that said - "this is why I hate women! They are fuckin dangerous" THE IRONY IS JUST TOO MUCH

Yes I know Soubriquet, it's not just a response to your post, but to the whole idea that the worst thing that can happen to a woman, is that her relationship/ marriage can be undermined by too much poking around at the hornet's nest of basic values. (I'm not saying that's what you meant in that post btw, just that that's often the context.)

So many women swallow their doubts and ignore that niggling unease, for the sake of the relationship. And I think its terrible for them. Someone's core values are absolutely the stuff of whether you respect them on an everyday basis for years and women are firmly discouraged from going too far down that road.

I honestly believe that the reason we're encouraged to not place too much emphasis on stuff like this, is because many, many men are at root quite sexist and women need to be able to ignore it, minimise it and put it in the "not important enough to rock the boat" box, in order for heterosexual relationships to survive.

I know how you feel op. My dad is a football fan. When CE came out of prison he decided to explain, to his 4 daughters, why CE was innocent. Including several made up 'facts' about the case that he'd convinced my dm were true. It didn't go down well.

I seriously can't understand how his mind works. As pp have said it's like he thinks my kids aren't that type of girl so it couldn't happen to them.

He's also the type of person to take an outlandish stance just to annoy you.

I don't know what he's going to say about it when I see him, but I know it will come up.

I said that initially AskBasil

I changed my mind when the OP he would smirk to hear her name chanted

And yes, women have the right to decide that they will only live with men who they respect. It's not immature to decide that. It's basic self-respect.

"Hard as it is. He won't change his mind and it could ruin your marriage"

Some marriages are better ruined.

Women are constantly told that they must do everything possible to preserve their marriages. But actually, living with a man you know deep down has contempt for you (because you are a woman) is soul-crushingly awful for a woman. We're constantly told that marriage is about fulfilment and love and happiness, not gritting your teeth and pretending the person you live with isn't a shit.

Yes, chanting her name should be a hate crime

As should be revealing her RL details on social media

I have been reflecting on this some more. I think the fact that so many men seem to think the outcome is fair is because if it was judged to, or rather upheld to be rape, those same men would quite probably have to examine their own consciences about how they had treated women in the past.

So 1 in 4 women have been raped - I am one of them - I believe this figure. This also means that statistically speaking men know a man in their social circle who has raped even if they are not aware of this, or he has done it himself. It is that simple. If even an absolutely clear case of non-consent is explained away, or acquittal is bought, it sort of salves the consciences of the substantial number of men who do not wish to recognise that their friends/fathers/sons must also have raped women, or worse, it helps them explain away their own acts. If it becomes harder for women to come forward, it is easier for men to believe what they do is 'okay'.

That is the first thing. The second is that if men agree out loud that this case was not rape, and condone various humiliating practices shaming the victim (chanting??) then it maintains the more general control and power men have socially to commit such acts, because they are not (potentially) rapists or rape apologists, they are simply enacting a communally accepted view and judgement. So, again, it is the safer option if men want to retain privilege based on sexual dominance. Which many, many do. It becomes a bit of laddish bonding, boys will be boys and all that.

Let's not forget that the police also know that DV spikes after football matches, and these kind of cultural enactings have real consequences for women. Chanting her name should be prosecuted as a hate crime as it is one.

Yes. I truly believe those men who are fully aware of all the facts and don't class these actions as rape, are potentially rapists themselves, simply in that they clearly don't believe that a man has to gain consent before having sex raping women.

Thinking of my DH as a potential rapist would be a bit of a deal breaker and is fuck all to do with being mature etc. LingTB over a different opinion on what to have to tea is one thing, LingTB because he just doesn't believe he has a duty to ensure a woman consents before sex, a completely different thing. It's not live and let live stuff when it comes to this.

Pink, unfortunately in this case the op's H had told her very clearly he is not willing to be educated or even to give a fair hearing of a different viewpoint to his own woman hating one.

Not much to work with there

Grim, I would not call it anything to do with "maturity"

It's about having boundaries. A line in the sand. The courage of your own convictions.

This isn't a disagreement about whether you should paint the sitting room green or blue.

This is about how you relate to 50% of the population and the messages you are sending to the next generation.

It's huge.

Saying you think he's served his time and should be allowed to get on with his life is one thing.

Saying you'd smirk if the victim's name were chanted in the stands is quite another.

Anyone's husband is entitled to their opinion. The wife is also entiled to find that opinion a deal breaker if she wishes. It is not an overreaction to want to leave a man having her name chanted in the terrraces because she was the subject of a rape case involving a footballer.

AF I think it's a good point that a lot of men just don't understand how vulnerable women are. Even if they try and imagine, they just can't simply because they are men - it's like people who have been very wealthy all their lives don't understand what it's like to be truly poor, they can imagine but they don't know what it's like. I'm sure people can explain it much better than I can - is it male privilege?

DH actually said to a male relative who didn't think it was rape (relative said well what do you expect if you go to a hotel with two footballers ) "she was naked in a room alone with one man and another walked in...what chance did she have"? and the relative didn't get it - he couldn't imagine what it would be like to be that vulnerable and not be the dominant person. Men don't get it. DH only understands in a sort of well i know exactly what happened to DW, he can't really understand what it's like to feel that vulnerable himself.

Incidentally the relative changed his mind after being apprised of the true facts (ie she bloody didn't go to a hotel with two footballers) so education worked in that case, but his view was from ignorance of the facts, rather than him being someone who doesn't give a shit about consent.

Men who dont give a shit about consent can't be changed/educated but I like to think men who are just ignorant can be educated. Only OP knows which type of man her DH is.

OP my husband says 'he served time for it what does it matte that it's been overturned?' I can't bear the whole case tbh think c e is absolutely vile and feel dreadful for the woman getting vilified HOWEVER your husband and mine are totally entitled to have a different opinion and we can't force them to see it our way. As much as I hate the whole thing it's a complicated case hence why it's such a talking point and there are a lot of people who agree with our husbands it's not really very mature to say they're all wrong and we shouldn't be with them because they don't agree.

It is to do with status and hierarchy, Grimarse - if a man is respected and says x, this will carry weight. It is that simple.

VestalVirgin
"On the other hand, if you don't have any sons, at least there's a good chance he won't be able to push his disgusting opinions on the next generations."

Unfortunately it is more than probable that he will push his opinions on to his daughters.

VV, I get what you are saying about how some men are more likely to "pretend" to not hate women when faced with disapproval from someone of higher or at least equal "ranking" than them

Sometimes all it takes to strip away the thin veneer of social obligation is for someone of like mind to agree with them. I am reminded of that survey on male attitude to rape. There was a frighteningly high proportion of respondents that admitted they would rape a woman if they knew they would never be brought to justice

it's a very precarious position for women to be in....and most men just do not understand that. We should not have to rely on a person not hurting us because of what others may think....it should be inherent in them not to do it in the first place

I'm not necessarily expecting DH to change peoples' minds particularly by speaking up (especially those men who just don't give a fuck about consent themselves anyway). I just think it's really important that men speak up and condemn this as rape both so women know they are supported (because I for one feel as bitter as fuck at the moment) and people do get educated.

The only way women will stop being raped is if men stop raping them, at the end of the day. I think there is a lot to do to educate young people, especially young men, and sometimes a male role model is of value here.

Op has DC. It's harmful for young girls to hear the message from their parent that this wasn't rape, but it's bloody harmful too if young boys hear it.

I don't want to detail the thread and I certainly don't want to imply men's opinions carry more weight than womens.

BTW, i also sometimes feel the punch in the face for some fuckers is the best way especially at the moment

OP, I'm sorry you have had this conversation with your H, it must be very upsetting

but.....'chanting her name'??? are people really doing that??so so shocking

also, I have to say, DP and DS both big football fans and as shocked as I am, it really is possible to like football AND respect women

Grimarse, oh, men do not want to change their mind, sure. But they will shut the fuck up if a person who has the power to ruin their life (and in most cases, a man will have more of that power - at least he can punch them in the face) disagrees with their shitty attitude.
You are correct in that men who are told by other men that women are human will not suddenly acknowledge that fact. But I do think they will try to pretend a little harder. Because they consider other men people and want to fit in with other people.

DH was saying he would ask directly if these men would act exactly the same

I fear that quite a lot of them would. I really don't think that ignorance is the problem here.

And quite a few who would not will still feel that they should be entitled to act like this if they should ever be in the mood to do so. Or that the rapist deserves freedom because he is, after all, a human being and his victim a mere object.

You see, I would not destroy one of my chairs with an axe and then burn it. I consider that a waste of good furniture. But would I want someone who did it sentenced to prison? Of course not!
That's the way those men think, and that's why I don't think this method will be so successful in making them see the wrongness.

having said that, dd's mum asked me something about her car and I suggested it was due to her driving style. She bristled but days later asked the same question of a female colleague with a similar answer. But she was honest enough to say " I wasn;t going to take that reply from you, a man."...hey.

Grimarse - I think it's true, FWIW, unfortunately here and in RL. 'you can trust a mans judgement better because he is one of us, rational, better informed, than a woman who is more emotional and has a sectional interest drum to beat'.
And people do change their minds - esp young ones. Do you think and feel the same as when you were 17?

...men like this probably aren't going to have their minds changed by women (as they clearly think so little of them), so there is a real duty on men who disagree with this verdict to speak out in an attempt to make these "hurrah justice has been served" men realise how wrong they are.

I see this mentioned on FWR quite a bit. Why do people think this is true? Why does anyone think men would listen to other men on any subject merely because they are men? In my experience, nobody changes their mind on anything much, in real life or on the internet.

If my DH took that stance I would be so, so, so fucking furious I would struggle to function without screaming. We have a DD and DD2 is on the way. Fortunately, he's just as much of a feminist as me. I feel really bloody awful for you.

What is it they say? When a man shows you who he really is, believe him.

Really hope you're okay. So angry for you!!