Ched Evans verdict

I'm a mixture of sad and angry right now. I'm furious that the witnesses were in effect paid off, and even more angry that their evidence about her sex life, which they had been paid to give, helped his case. I have very little trust in the criminal justice system right now. I work with victims of dv and sexual abuse and I'm slowly starting to understand why they don't speak out about it. It was a sad day for women. Yesterday was really a wake up call for me. Up until then I thought we were more or less equal, or not fully equal but I never thought it was as bad as this. How can a woman's sexual history have any effect on her ability to be raped?! I actually had a little cry last night, because I Am starting to realise how disadvantaged we really are. Things haven't really improved from the olden days at all. What a sad day to be a woman. No wonder so many rapes don't get in reported, because women are always painted as bloody liars, and the entire system is so make dominated. The fight for women has been going since the suffragettes and I dare say before, and while things have changed in terms of legislation, attitudes haven't really changed at all and neither has the sexism in the courts and other systems. This whole thing makes me so angry and afraid to be a woman in a way

MoreKopp, exactly!

I mean if her 'normal' enjoying consensual sex comment was--oh fiery wild stallion fill my frozen womb with your burning love, in Latin, then maybe and still only maybe would it be relevant.

But fuck me harder & doggy style, I place money on a couple saying doing that right now. Hardly unique.

11122aa, Brookstein is a bear of very little brain and even less talent. I always wonder about men who protest in the way he has about how rape isn't rape, and I usually come to the fairly logical conclusion that it's because they've done the same or similar themselves.

GivemeRitz that's what I'm discovering, too. Even my brother, whom I'd always believed was one of the most decent men alive, thinks that women prefer to shout rape than to face their regretted choices of the night before.

If even decent men believe that making a false accusation is easy, what do we do? It has to be made very very clear how hard it is to bring an accusation even to the point of reporting.

Steve Brokstein has chirped up. He said at best she forgot she didn't consent at worse she is a lying whore. Yes he used that word.

Totally agree AyeAmarok, and I also disagree with that barrister in terms of the societal impact.

Surely the "harder" phrase, and preferring sex from behind are about as rare as finding some hay in a haystack?

I've read and listened to various discussions this morning of barrister complaining that women's groups are saying this sets a precedent and will stop victims coming forward. They say this doesn't set any legal precedent, that this was a "very exceptional case" where the evidence of her sexual history was relevant.

But it does set a precedent, even if not a legal one. It makes it so, so much easier for men to get away with raping extremely drunk women. That's the precedent I think people who are outraged are referring to.

Now, all a rapist needs to do is see a woman who has fallen over from drink and is acting "vacant", start having sex with her without even speaking to her, and then say that she said something that resembles something that the woman may have said during (consensual) sexual intercourse with someone else (whom you've bribed with 50k, incidentally).

I have said "go harder" various times while having sex, with various people. So now, if I'm raped, and he says I said that, and I have no memory either through alcohol or a date rape drug or I'm asleep, they just need to speak to any of my exes and bingo: reasonable doubt. A jury must now concede that you had "reasonable belief of consent", which is a defence to rape. Even if you could just be making up that the phrase was said.

And that's why this verdict is so dangerous for all past and future victims of rape.

I agree ... It is appalling. I also just tried to talk with a reasonable man about it, and he didn't get it either. The world is indeed a darker place.

I've found 2 threads that I referred to earlier which talk about rapists defining consent.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a2283756-The-power-to-define-rape

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1435548-Consent-a-problematic-concept-if-ever-I-saw-one

Another reason this will hurt victims of rape...
The people reading, absorbing, then commenting on this are future jurors. They have seen that this is "not Rape Rape" and will carry that forward.

Shit the end of the world is nigh!! I agree with a headline in the Sun…

Trying to talk reasonably about this case with good/decent men is scary, so far they (IME) have all displayed an innate belief/assumption that it's 'easy' for women to lie about rape. That women will lie after regrettable sex.

And these are good men, all were disgusted by this case, that her sexual history was brought in, agree that Ched is scum…but still have absorbed the belief that (a) it's 'easy' to get someone charged with rape (b) that a rape charge 'hurts' a man life in spite/despite evidence to the contrary.

the world is a darker place

What are the headlines, I had a look but couldn't find them?

This verdict is disgusting. I know it's been said here but what has been included in the courtroom this time round (the irrelevant assertions about the other sex she may or may not have had, and where there is a £££££ reward out from the Ched Evans camp fishing for exactly such assertions) and what's been left out (the only other guy in the room's evidence) has been shocking. I can only imagine the individual damage done to the poor woman involved and it creates a dreadful legal precedent. I feel powerless as to what to do to protest and so worried for women who have been raped and who get into the legal system. It's awful.

You're right, cloak. I'm glad at least that several newspapers have highlighted the disgusting decision and questioned it.

spartacus I still don't think that's good enough because this was barely a threesome (CM went out almost immediately). Also just because someone consents to a threesome once that doesn't mean they consented to this one.
I really think previous sexual behavigour shouldn't be allowed at all. Can't see any reason for it.

I can't stop thinking about this case and the woman at the heart of it.

Even if we allow for one moment the disgusting decision to bring her past sexual behaviour into the trial, surely the question was not 'does this woman enjoy sex at the end of a night out', the question should have been 'has this woman ever knowingly, consciously and voluntarily participated in a threesome'? It's a completely different situation.

Right, so nothing changed then after I went to bed last night. Apparently some people still think that men keeping their penis to themselves when drunk/partner is drunk is a ridiculous and impossible task, and that women will report rape on a whim.

Surprise, surprise, rape myths that men can't control themselves, and women are all lying bitches, despite personal, and statistical evidence to the contrary.

Honestly, I hear so often that feminists don't do themselves any favours by being rude, or talking the way they do, yet blokes come on here and talk like that and we're not supposed to be disgusted by it? Not supposed to lose a little more respect for men as a class when they talk like that?

Don't be too impressed by the Sun. Right next to the 'treating women like dirt' banner is a half naked woman and "See all of Orla" headline.

Face. Palm.

Oh I love the sun. Never thought I'd say that. Even down to how they've put about his "compo" in the headline
fresh I totally agree. My DH told me I needed to be more objective last night
I don't think men "get" how scary this is. If you're drunk, a man can rape you and it terrifies me. Less on my own behalf (I'm too old now hopefully) but for my DD.

Wow, I'm really surprised and impressed by the sun.

The Sun and Mail headlines are encouraging.

So pleased that the sun has come out in the way it has. Times are changing although this verdict is discouraging. Ten years sho, this prosecution could very well not have been brought. There has been a massive change in the attitude and approach of the prosecutors in this country. They are consciously standing up to rape myths now and that will alter public attitudes over time.