Not really feminism but why is it OK...

What on earth has shame got to do with it?

I do think that aged four is old enough to understand that you don't past comment on people's appearance or behaviour in public and that it is more polite to wait until later to raise any questions

Exactly-

OP you seem to view anyone who doesn't look like you and your child as a public learning activity.

Adoption is not something to be ashamed of but nor is it something the individual might be happy with having bellowed across.

The child has no need to feel ashamed. They just need to learn that its not polite. They risk becoming those awful kind of adults who go on about these things.

I wasn't suggesting that any posters here were saying that x characteristic is shameful. Just wondering whether we are contributing to that overall paradigm by teaching children that they should be ashamed for mentioning ordinary physical characteristics. No conversation is required - just an acknowledgement that yes, indeed, I am very much larger than average - we are all different sizes. Or yes, he is very black - we are all different colours. Or yes, some people are amputees/ blind/ bald/ freckly/ ginger/ wear different clothes. Kids need to know that all of those things are perfectly ordinary, and not shameful. Sure you can teach them that across the board it is rude to talk about other people when they are present - but treating such ordinary things as certain physical characteristics as a hushed category is reinforcing that those categories are somehow Other.

Tell them it's rude to talk about other people when they are present, if you must shut down conversation, not that it's rude to mention someone's ability/ skin colour/ weight.

There is a difference.

The person who looks different may not want to b a learning opportunity.

Yes, and actually, I'm quite surprised that people aren't getting this. Tall person on the bus doesn't want to hear that conversation on why he's so tall. Leave them out of it for goodness sake!

There is a massive difference between inculcating shame and chatting about some random people's physical features - tall/black/fat/whatever in front of them.

The problem is that people are often good natured but it doesn't mean they actually appreciate being used as an educational tool.

I never said disability was shameful, we would just like to go out and not be looked at or asked questions. Other people manage to do it, can't see how I'm being precious.
I have had an hour's sleep in thirty odd hours though, so I am most probably being really, really a bit unreasonable :o

This is when it is really useful to be fat. When my dc made these sorts of comments, my response was usually along the lines of "Yes, he is. People come in all sorts of shapes/sizes/colours, just like I'm fat and Daddy is slender, and you have brown hair and your sister has red hair." Mostly that satisfied them.

Once they got to the "But why...?" stage, I would simply say "It's rude to discuss people's appearance in front of them. We'll talk about this when we get home."

Occasionally you can see that the person under discussion is open to being questioned, in which case I would say to my dc "I don't know. I'm not them. Why don't you ask them?" Once my dc asked a man "Why are you in a wheelchair?" He gave them a big grin and replied "Because I have no legs" while whisking the rug off his lap. "Bye!" and wheeled himself cheerfully away.

Aren't we just enabling the shame if we continue to hush innocent questions and comments though? I do often think that this stuff gets out of hand. Like the fat thing. I'm fat. Being judgemental or assuming that it is shameful and Must Not Be Mentioned is part of the problem. It's just fat. Some people are fat. Some people are thin. By treating it as something to be whispered about or not mentioned at all is contributing to fat shaming. I'm not talking about pointing and laughing. It IS weird that it considered rude and beyond the pale to neutrally state a fact.
Likewise, the disability thing gets my goat. Dd2 is physically disabled and used to use a wc a lot. She also had issues with her eyes (which was apparently loads more noticeable than the wc lol). We had no end of kids ask questions. I just answered them. Or said 'hey dd2' and let her answer herself. The kids who asked and had their questions answered were absolutely fine and had no problem playing with her, walking alongside chatting, or asking her if they could have a go on her equipment. The ones whose mothers hushed them, whisked them away, and gave them a good lecture about how rude it was to ask about disability were the ones who didn't interact with her, stared at her from the other side of the playground, and treated her as though she was contagious. There was SomethingBad going on that they weren't allowed to mention or interact with. It's a really good way to ensure your kid avoids people with disabilities. That is counter-productive.
Disability is not shameful. Skin colour is not shameful. Weight is not shameful.
I do get that we aren't living in a utopia and that these things are value-laden, but I can't help but think we are reinforcing it by playing along with the Unmentionable categories. It's a very fine line.

"If children ask me directly about it that's fine, I'm happy to explain it. I would rather however not sit and listen to a parent and child discuss it in front of me."
I think we have a series of things here. Interrupting someone else and asking them stuff, that is a major imposition. Having a major discussion knowing that the person concerned can hear it and pretending they can't is also an imposition. A few words, that is a different matter. I'd find trying to not be overheard and whispering is actually more noticable than a few words in an ordinary voice. And we're talking about small kids here, who after all (and I think this matters a lot to me!) are usually asking in all innocence, and what answer they get will matter a lot as to how they feel about whatever it is in the future. They can't necessarily distinguish between the don't comment cos it's rude and the don't comment cos you've asked about something shameful (and the latter is often disguised as the former in my experience!). Perhaps that is just my childhood experiences and the things I was made to feel were shameful....................

Pressed post too soon.

I have scar visible in certain clothing. If children ask me directly about it that's fine, I'm happy to explain it. I would rather however not sit and listen to a parent and child discuss it in front of me.

I disagree that a hushed voice indicated shame.

It is not considered polite in our society to openly pass comment on anyone within their hearing. The hushed voices acknowledged that the conversation is societally inappropriate but deals with the child's age appropriate lack of impulse control.

I do think that aged four is old enough to understand that you don't past comment on people's appearance or behaviour in public and that it is more polite to wait until later to raise any questions.

I think by 4 a child should know not to make personal remarks. 2 is different, but by 4 manners should have kicked in.

The person who looks different may not want to b a learning opportunity.

I don't think it's ok really. I've had children come and ask me what is wrong with my daughter who has a disability (to be fair I have also had adults do this) or I have had loud parents give an explanation so we can hear
I'd rather you explained to your children open mindedness from an early age, all people are different, out of my earshot when I am buying sea bass.

I don't want to sound bad tempered as I'm not really, I'm very patient but there is a time and a place and approaching people in sainsburys when they are just going about their business does get a bit wearing.
Of course we are polite and explain but I'd rather we could just be left alone and I feel TERRIBLE posting that as the flip side to that scenario is much much worse, when it's abusive
Again. We just want to be left alone!

I'm sure you aren't a horrible person and I'm sure you have posted with the best intentions, so don't take what I have said as a personal slight to you.

I think you can say 'it isn't polite to comment' certainly yes.

I would also apologise promptly.

Sorry.. that commenting in public isn't the best thing!

And what SomeDyke says. Our responses need to show that there is nothing shameful about being any of those things whilst at the same time conveying that commenting on them in public.

It's a conundrum alright!

I'm surprised you think it's okay for your four year old to say those things to be honest. I understand toddlers blurt things out but by 4 he should be starting to understand it isn't polite.

I agree Owllady I found the opening question quite odd

Why is it Ok for my 4 year old to say "that man's really tall!" and indeed "that man's really black" but not "that man's really fat!".

As I dont think any of them are OK.

I would say tall is OK but not black or fat TBH, the reason being that at some point in our history both those things have been viewed negatively and have more power to hurt feelings.

When we live in a society where black, fat, etc are just descriptors with no judgey baggage attached then it will be a different story.

"I think a 4 year old is old enough to be told to stop pointing out other people's differences. Has he seen a Thalidomide victim yet?"
I think you're wrong. Young kids ask in all innocence, and I think it is very, very important what answer they get! If a kid asks about a thalidomide victim, or someone with any other visible condition, if they are shushed and told not to ask, then we'll be where we were twenty-odd years ago, when you didn't talk about disabled people, it was seen but not seen, such a shame, hidden. It's the difference between people with prostheses (after the Paralympics and all that!), who want to display and decorate them, as opposed to the old days when all the focus was on hiding and camouflage.

I think what is healthiest for kids (and for the rest of us), is that when they see something/someone they are innocently interested in, they can ask and be told the truth. Shushing them just says, X is something we don't talk about in public, it just prepares for hiding and shame. I think this is true whether we are talking about disabilities, or about, for instance, gay people being visibly affectionate. Shush just says to me, straight away, kid this is something shameful and you shouldn't talk about it and pretend you haven't noticed......................Actually, I think that is probably why I react so strongly, the seen but not talked about, don't ask, don't tell aspect when it comes to gay people. Couched as politeness, but actually grossly shame-inducing.

I know kids do comment but you have to tell them to stop doing it really. I think a 4 year old is old enough to understand someone may be unwell if they are not in fine physique and have a carer with them.

Rather like he would point out someone with blue hair, and then when he's seen 4 or 5 of them he wouldn't bother any more, but might point out someone with green hair if he hasn't seen that before.

I think a 4 year old is old enough to be told to stop pointing out other people's differences. Has he seen a Thalidomide victim yet? Or does he have to see 4 or 5 of them before he stops commenting?