The gift of fear - triggering

I read them too, gone, and I struggle to see your point. Feminists don't blame women for listening to their instincts. It's convention that urges us to be polite while our instincts are warning us of danger. I wouldn't like to know how many women have been raped simply because they were trying to be polite.

I'm not interested in discussing it further either fresh - was a relevant point made in passing. Good to know you read my posts though :)

I personally think it's a tangent which, with respect to Italian, I'm not particularly interested in going down, thanks all the same. I understood the point very well as you have elaborated at some length on it on threads past. I remain unconvinced

I suggest you read Italian's post to understand the logic and relevance of my post fresh. She doesn't have your bias problems understanding the point. Which was a fair one whether you wish to see it or not.

i'm confused about where i've said that women should fear women- can you quote me back on that, gone, because i can't see it myself?

i don't think you make a knock on point at all, i think you've made a point that i seem to recall is a bit of a hobby horse of yours, which is that feminists want to give women advice that will get them raped. Which i don't think is true.

I struggle to see how we get from "listen to your instincts" to "listen to your instincts or it will be your own fault if anything bad happens" so directly. the point of the article and book is to encourage women to fight social conditioning that tells us not to be "rude" by having good boundaries. The only way a women is in danger of being raped is by being in the presence of a rapist, and the advice given in this book is about how to be more adept at identifying that possibility at an earlier stage, with more confidence and then to feel able to act on intuition. have you read it? because i think that might help clarify it for you.

No, I didn't make it sound as if women should be scared of each other at all fresh. You rudely suggest I've missed the point when I've grasped it and raised a knock -on point.

If we suggest women should listen to their fear, sooner or later a victim will state that it must then be their fault they were assaulted because they didn't listen to their instincts and act on their fears.

To avoid the idea that women sound modify their behaviour in any way on account of the baddies out there is a most unpopular view. I've been on threads where feminists have been adamant that acting 'prudently' (which is exactly how fear prompts women to act) is self -limiting and useless as a way to stay safe, unless you are also eschewing all men for life.

I've also been on threads where people have insisted a naked woman walking down the middle of the road in a bad area is as safe from rape as the women tucked up in bed at home. To suggest otherwise was seen as victim blaming. But it is our instincts that tell us we would not be very safe in that scenario and they do so for a reason.

So no, women aren't scared of women as such but there is a fatalistic subtext to what women hear from feminists that encourage them to view fear as a relic of oppression.

Not even random men. Men we know, friends of friends, friends dad's, boyfriends friends.
My incident was with an ex boyfriends step dad, he always made me uncomfortable but I was friendly as, you know, boyfriends step dad. One night I was staying there, ex was out for a bit, step dad kissed me . Then I had a massive issue of having to leave an ex not believing me as to why.
If I'd listened to my gut I could have made an excuse and left or whatever.
It's not always strangers.

Read it at 21 and recommended it to friends. it struck a chord, eg socialisation to be "nice".

I completely disagree, gone. You make it sound as if it is feminism that make women scared of men.

It's men who make women fear men.

Women are encouraged to view fear as irrational, overwrought, hysterical, disproportionate. You're not supposed to say you're afraid of the friend of a friend, or the delivery driver, or the taxi driver, or any of the other men who women say have made their spidey senses tingle on this very thread, because it is rude and you might hurt an innocent man's feelings. Women are socialised to put other people's feelings, particularly men's, above their own, and doing this can put us in terrible danger because we're told that our instincts are wrong. If you haven't understood that from the linked article, or from having read this book, then you really haven't grasped the point of this thread.

I think women are often encouraged to view fear as submission to male oppression - and consequently are less likely to listen to their fear and take a 'prudent' course of action because they have been told that it won't make them any safer since stranger rape makes up a tiny proportion of sexual assault.

That extract is really interesting.

I posted a while ago when I thought I was irrationally scared of a delivery man.
(No dramatic story). My first thought was I was silly, to ignore my instincts. But I haven't ordered from that restaurant since. I have had takeaways. I havent been scared of a delivery man since, I am not nervous at night.

Who knows but in hindsight there is a difference between living in fear and paying attention to sensible instincts.

"For some reason the way the delivery man lingered and looked at me and called me darling has completely creeped me out. Stupid. it was nothing. He was probably just being nice, at worst a little flirty. But it's dark.
Strangers doing scary things is actually really rare isn't it? I really need to get a grip.
I'm overanalysing that he knows i order for one.
Grip needed!"

I think it's an excellent book.
The 'trust your instincts' message is worth listening to even in situations where violence isn't involved - if I had listened to my intuition instead of beating it back I wouldn't have been conned out of £500 by the dodgy drain survey man! All my misgivings were perfectly rational.
I have a friend who had a house fire which she discovered in time because she untypically went to check for a towel she had left downstairs. She thinks her survival was due to woo, I think her subconscious had picked up lots of cues about something being wrong.

I have read half of it. I struggle to read, dissociation stuff, but half way through and will go back to it. I think every woman should read it. We are socially conditioned to ignore our instincts. A very British thing to be polite to the point of putting ourselves in danger and also what is expected of us as young girls, teens then women. It's crap. It's wrong and if i had daughters of ensure they read this.
Trust yourself. Trust your instincts. You are an expert on you.

Elendon

The most striking part of that article to me is the figures the author produces on violent crime in America. Scary fucking place. It tickles me that Americans assume everyone wants to live there. I don't.

Intuition is so important. When I was younger I almost deliberately ignored it. Thought I was being unfair to be wary of men. I once met a guy in a pub who turned out to be a friend of a friend. He told me he was living in a squat which was great but no bath. He really missed having a bath. Now I know he was priming me but I thought offering a bath at my place was my idea, although I wasn't taken with this bloke. I interpreted my discomfort as a form of snobbery. We were in my kitchen, he was about to go run the bath, when a man friend of mine dropped by.

My new visitor reacted instantly. He was extremely decisive. "Get out of here this instant and don't come back you creep," was the sense of what he said. Afterwards he read me a little lecture about sexual predators. I thought he was being mean until he pointed out that once the other bloke was in the bathroom he was entitled to be naked in my flat, which made any attack on me far easier and exposing himself a doddle. I felt so stupid. Since then I don't care if I'm being unfair. I feel uncomfortable for a reason. It's wise to notice feelings that somehow something is not quite right.

I read it a while ago, it made perfect sense to me. Women in particular are socialised to ignore their instincts and it's good to discuss it. I'm better at it now but had a couple of near-misses when I was younger, as I think we all have.

I did read this book and then went online for the survey which reported that I must never trust my ex partner. I ignored it, because he was such a smooth talking operator.

I've decided now that he deserves prison. Making the second appointment with the solicitor as I write this, she said, that without a doubt, he will go to prison and do I want this. I will be seen as a bitter ex, but he cannot leech on me any longer.

I love the book - it was hugely empowering for me to see it written down that it's ok to not feel comfortable with someone and not be able to explain why, and to not have to be polite. Sounds ridiculous, but I needed to be told that because it's not what I was taught/socialised to do.

The guidance about intuition is spot on. We are so discouraged from talking about fears, especially about men, that we literally don't have the words to explain what we are feeling. I'm not a 'woo' person, but at last I understood what that feeling in my gut was - it's seeing and experiencing something that is a warning sign, but not being able to explain it in my own words. It empowered me hugely.