If I can change my sex, why can't I change my race?

fakenamefornow · 2016-09-27T22:10:38+00:00

I am white British, family all.white British, from England. I have blond hair and blue eyes. I do have some African blood though, many generations back, I don't feel African in any way though, never even been there, and feel no particular connection to the continent. I love my African heritage though, just because it's interesting. If I had a black husband, black children lived among a black community and this was were I felt most comfortable, why couldn't I describe myself as black? Actually I think know why, I just don't understand why changing sex (or rather gender) is treated so differently, when sex, unlike race, really is binary. Not wanting to offend anyone and apologies if I haven't used the corrected terms. I really am curious though.

Mamaka · 11/10/2016 21:15

In my v limited understanding surely sex = ethnicity (biological/"real") and gender = race (social construct) in this argument?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/10/2016 10:17

No one is born in the wrong body. We may not like aspects of our bodies but they are indisputably ours.

WankingMonkey · 10/10/2016 17:51

*Some are perfectly happy with their penises and such but just want to be known as women.

WankingMonkey · 10/10/2016 17:51

people have a sex change because they were born in the wrong body

It is transphobic to say this now you know? Not all trans were 'born in the wrong body' and to suggest they are is 'othering'. Some pare perfectly happy with their penises and such but just want to be known as women.

WindPowerRanger · 10/10/2016 17:02

Actually, the site discussing physical racial differences to which Olenna linked is seriously dodgy. There is clearly a lurking agenda that is very distasteful, so I suggest that we shouldn't set too much store by it.

See how the site's founders describe themselves, for example;

"What We Believe
"Race is an important aspect of individual and group identity. Of all the fault lines that divide society—language, religion, class, ideology—it is the most prominent and divisive. Race and racial conflict are at the heart of some of the most serious challenges the Western World faces in the 21st century.

"The problems of race cannot be solved without adequate understanding. Attempts to gloss over the significance of race or even to deny its reality only make problems worse. Progress requires the study of all aspects of race, whether historical, cultural, or biological. This approach is known as race realism.

"American Renaissance
"American Renaissance was published as a monthly print magazine from October 1990 through January 2012. All back issues are available here. AR has had a web presence since 1994, and we consider AmRen.com to be the Internet’s premier race-realist site. Every weekday we publish articles and news items from a world-wide race-realist perspective.

"Who We Are
"American Renaissance and its website are run by Jared Taylor, Henry Wolff, and Chris Roberts. Our mailing address is Box 527, Oakton, VA 22124 and our telephone number is (703) 716-0900."

sarahsarah76 · 10/10/2016 16:14

changing race is not the same as changing sex.

people have a sex change because they were born in the wrong body

white people want to be 'transracial' because they want to pick and choose what parts of black culture they experience and its white privilege at its finest

sarahsarah76 · 10/10/2016 16:13

you cant because i bet as soon as you actually lived life as a black person for one day you'd want to be white again because of all the systematic racism they experience

Thejubremonyatthelibrary · 07/10/2016 19:01

wow, that Tweet (in the article) is just jaw dropping cisoff!

WankingMonkey · 07/10/2016 17:12

What a self-obsessed, deluded fucking arsehole.

Cisoff · 07/10/2016 14:03

well wouldya looky here!

This clever clogs has done both!

Terrifiedandregretful · 06/10/2016 19:51

I think all of the arguments as to why you can't change race (which I agree with) apply equally to changing sex. I don't understand how anyone can see the former as unacceptable and the latter as fine and progressively dandy. And yet this seems to be the mainstream liberal view.

WankingMonkey · 05/10/2016 19:43

MyNameIsInigoMontoya

That age analogy just blew me away a little, I have to say. It is exactly the same thing to me as 'identifying' as the opposite sex. Even down to things such as you could 'dress as' a 70 year old if you chose to but this does not mean you are indeed 70 years old. You can get botox at 70 and look ten years younger but you will still be 70, and so on. To me this is the perfect analogy.

FontSnob · 05/10/2016 13:07

More complex indeed. I don't have the answer. Its not ok to change race for all the reasons discussed so you could start with thinking about reasons that it might not be ok to change sex. Are there any?

Original poster

fakenamefornow · 05/10/2016 12:01

Your original post did not touch on the nuances of being mixed race. You asked if, as a white woman submerged in a black family, could you identify as black. No, you couldn't and it would be considered offensive if you did appropriate the culture (I understand it is a rhetorical question)

Yes, I agree, I can't change my race, I'm not black and have no real or meaningful connection with Africa. I don't understand why sex is seen so differently though, why it IS fine to change sex but not race.

OP posts:

FontSnob · 05/10/2016 11:58

This quote from the article:

"So I understand if you have questions, like: What if I grew up around Black people? What if Black people compliment me on this? What if I’m not white, but biracial?

Asking questions is a great way to figure it out – because the key is applying context.

Do some research.

Find out about the origins of what you’re borrowing, and if it’s possible to honor its meaning as a white person. If you’re a biracial person with white passing privilege, reflect on what it would mean for you to be read as a white person benefiting from this aspect of Black culture.

Perhaps most importantly, think about the impact of what you’re doing.

If you’re doing this out of appreciation for Black culture, then are you giving us support or trivializing our struggles?

If you’re doing this for your own self-expression, are you expressing yourself in a way that contributes to the oppression of Black people?

Keep in mind that it’s not just about you – nothing you do is separate from the broader system of white supremacy, no matter how pure your intentions."

FontSnob · 05/10/2016 11:44

I am responding to the original post, can you change your race. No you can't and you can't just say oh i'm going to be black because I want to be or think i should be, for all the reasons that i have outlined. I apologise if I haven't made it clear that i wasn't talking about people who are mixed race or who are in a minority like your friend. Of course they pose a different conversation and I believe identify with being black without any type of offence being caused.

Your original post did not touch on the nuances of being mixed race. You asked if, as a white woman submerged in a black family, could you identify as black. No, you couldn't and it would be considered offensive if you did appropriate the culture (I understand it is a rhetorical question)

This is an interesting article which whilst doesn't answer your original question, should give you insight into why it is offensive. At most you can only ever appreciate and try to listen to understand another race. You can not be them.

everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/appropriating-black-culture/

Original poster

fakenamefornow · 05/10/2016 11:11

It's why changing sex is seen so different that's the puzzle for me though?

OP posts:

Original poster

fakenamefornow · 05/10/2016 11:09

But you are talking about people who are mixed race or have a skin pigmentation difference due to genetics but are of that race in every other way. That is very, very different to a white person who just decides that they want to identify as black

True. But you said that

A white person cannot identify as black because their outward appearance has never made them the target of racism and oppression due to the colour of their skim

It's this that I disagree with. I think skin colour is only one factor in somebodies racial make-up and identity. Appearing white might make you immune from much of the racism that goes hand in hand with being black and give you a different perspective on being black.

I used to have a friend, years ago, in this very situation. She looked white European but wasn't. She was from a family of five children and she was the only one who didn't look like the rest. She had loads of milk man jokes her whole life, including from immediate family. She was very close with her siblings though, despite the teasing. I think looking different to the rest of the family was quite hard for her and although having white skin might have eased her path through life she said always felt a little outside the rest of the family because of her looks. Oh and the white skin came from some German ancestry .

OP posts:

FontSnob · 05/10/2016 10:53

But you are talking about people who are mixed race or have a skin pigmentation difference due to genetics but are of that race in every other way. That is very, very different to a white person who just decides that they want to identify as black, which is what I, and very many people find grossly offensive.

Original poster

fakenamefornow · 05/10/2016 10:04

I think MyNameIs makes a good point about age.

OP posts:

Original poster

fakenamefornow · 05/10/2016 10:04

I think there is an underlying conflict in the liberal position (as espoused on Buzzfeed, The Guardian, etc.) of encouraging self identification whilst gathering up the pitchforks for Dolezal. And don't misread me here, i'm no Dolezal supporter. I strongly believe that what she did was wrong. But I see a glaring faultline in that line of thought, and that cognitive disonance is just accepted.

I agree, I'm confused by this. It seems we are in a time were people are excepted as being whatever they say they are (regardless of the biological facts) although this seem to only be applied to gender. The only reason I can see that one is ok, even celebrated and defended and the other demonized is that as many men are black as women and the rights of men always come first. I know this is very simplistic though and it's all a lot more complicated, hence the confusion.

A white person cannot identify as black because their outward appearance has never made them the target of racism and oppression due to the colour of their skim like a black person does on a daily basis

I do disagree with this though. I think genetics is very complex and people can be born to a black family with an outwardly white appearance. Their white skin might shield them from the day to day racism their siblings face but I don't think that means they can't identify themselves as black.

btw I don't identify myself as African and I have no legitimate claim to. I do love the fact that I have some African blood though, but I have never had to carry the burden of racism in a white mans world.

OP posts:

albertcampionscat · 05/10/2016 07:09

But you're saying 'was white' 'was black' as though these were definite things. FWIW in my case I do think it'd be daft if I claimed to be a different race, but for a lot of people it is more fluid and it's not clear (to me at least) that it's easy to draw the boundary.

FontSnob · 04/10/2016 23:27

Sorry if that a bit garbled, tired and on my iPhone. I think a person converting to religion is a different question entirely and I don't think it's offensive if that's what you believe in. If you do it just to appease someone else then it is a questionable decision that people may find offensive but no, nowhere near as offensive as saying you can identify as a person when you never ever could.

FontSnob · 04/10/2016 23:22

There is a huge difference between becoming or living as someone else and experiencing a life as that changed person and saying you identify as something that you are not nor can ever be. So, I could as the wife of a Jewish man, convert and so our chosen be Jewish. However, my experience as a converted Jew would still not ever really match that of a person born to the religion with a history of ancestors and truly being able to understand how it feels to be persecuted as a Jew. I may encounter prejudice which would become a part of my experience and I could call myself Jewish and follow the religion.

Now, if I'm not black, I never will be, I will never experience the racism and prejudice that is encountered daily, I would not feel the oppressive history that goes with having black skin. If there was a member of my family who were black but I was white then I still couldn't identify with their experience and I couldn't lay claim to being black, I just couldn't.

albertcampionscat · 04/10/2016 21:47

FontSnob

You're right, of course. The Rachel Dolezal move is bizarre and indefensible, but where the boundaries lies is a tricky one. What if she had been quarter black? One eighth? One sixteenth? What if you were on the straitish but not quite end of the Kinsey scale? At what stage does claiming an identity become offensive?

Christopher Hitchens only found out his mother was Jewish when she died. He was in his forties by then and felt that it wasn't really an identity he could assume. What if he'd gone the other way and started going to synagogue and wearing the kippah and learning the Torah? Would that be offensive? Would it be more or less offensive than a secular goy going through the motion of conversion to keep their equally non-believing Jewish other half's family happy? Is that significantly different from pretending you're C of E to get the kids into school?