Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

I think transpeople that are sympathetic to women have to understand that the gaslighting around language is part of the problem. No one should expect that.

Me too, I'm afraid.

This is to pickle really:

Someone like tumble, who is probably a very nice person, is definitely going to be able to capitalise on the laws if they change, whilst at exactly the same time, being able to disagree vehemently with the way the transactivists are effecting that change.

If more transsexuals with genuine gender dysphoria, who have no interest in claiming they are women or accessing women's spaces, stood up and said not in my name, we would have a lot more clout.

They want to be considered women, by women, whilst the same time ignoring the plight of women because it doesn't benefit them.

And that is the paradox for me.

Again, it's not personal. But if they want to remain passive and think this battle is not relevant to them, then I can think them irrelevant to this battle.

It doesn't make sense to me that women are unhappy with men being referred to as women in relation to crimes, sports or bathrooms yet will acknowledge them as women here, on the basis that they seem nice. If someone acknowledges they are male I don't understand why we are referring to them as female when they're not.

Either we're ok with accepting and treating some men as women or we're not. Surely the deciding factor isn't whether they are nice.

There are trabswomen who extend compassion and consideration for women. Yardley being the obvious voice but there are others on Twitter I've read I'm sure. And tumble here. And posters on these threads occasionally you they have rl friend who are trans who are outraged at how TRA's are erasing women.

I maybe in the minority here bit other than for recording purposes or similar I don't see why we similar hold down a ermine for 'them'. Ultimately their experience is their issue as long as it's not encroaching on my experience and my terms (woman and female).I think they similarhpuldhpuld be ree to use their own terms. So transwoman, trasvestite, mtt as they prefer- as long ass it is different from my (our) terms. I asssppriciate in terms of discussing jeska etc that language can be manipulative asssppriciate it's important to use male, but also not to condem respecting the individuals who respect us. I feel only to aware my young children may have higher risk of gender dysphoria, having asd already, and while we are very relaxed about gender roles at home this still may lead to higher risk of gender dysphoria & I know I would be considerate of that. I guess I find it more disturbing that so many transactivists would want to scrub their entire life before transioning (especially being a male father) but I don't think anyone not living that will be the expert in what terms are right for them. Sad anyone feels they must have some term, but if they feel the need they should define that imo. As long anyonepriciate they don't define me.

Me too

I agree and have thought this for a while.

I don't however feel any recognition in them that they are women, nor do I feel any affinity coming from them for women

This

My patience with the whole thing has been utterly exhausted. As far as I'm concerned now any 'genuine' transwomen who wants any empathy from me can stand with women and help to put a stop to this crap. Be part of the solution or you're part of the problem.

Hmm. I'm going to have to reserve judgement. Tumble knows she is not a biological woman. I'm not comfortable with talking about her more specifically than that, as I may misremember the things she has said and accidentally misrepresent her. I would not want to use language about her which makes her unhappy. I know she does not wish to marginalise women and is opposed to the current state of trans ideology.

I do want to prevent the likes of Fallon and Lauren colonising my sex. IYSWIM.

The wider world will hit peak trans soon, won't it? Won't it?

picklemepopcorn

I know what you mean too! Of course there are going to be some terribly nice people who are trans.

But because I think the ideology is based on the completely wrong premise, the justifications for it, however well-intentioned, will often expose that.

Gender dysphoria is real and quite crippling. It doesn't mean that you are a woman. I have every sympathy for someone with gender dysphoria and can completely understand how presenting as the opposite sex alleviates the symptoms.

I don't however feel any recognition in them that they are women, nor do I feel any affinity coming from them for women.

Tumble is a biological male with a penis.

Well, I know what you mean. However, a few pertinent questions are usually very revealing.

The interesting thing about Gendertrender is that if anyone trans does comment, the site assumes from the off that they are dodgy. They call it out immediately and I have never yet seen a response that didn't involve a shed load of violent abuse.

Of course, it could be that the site attracts the more dubious trans-poster. But so far the hit rate is 100%.

I do worry though when our righteous rage against the likes of Fallon and Lauren leads us to use hurtful language about other transpeople. I wouldn't want to upset tumble for example by using language she is uncomfortable switch and 'other ing' her unnecessarily, as a reaction to people who she is nothing like, IYSWIM.
When I read the last few comments about 'transgendered males' cross dressers and transvestites it concerns me that people like tumble will get caught up in that language, and hurt by it. I recognise where you are coming from with it, but I don't think it quite works, IMO.

It already is. I keep saying to myself I need to stop reading these threads as they make me so angry. I'd previously believed the guff about women being trapped in men's bodies. I don't know if I should say this really but it disturbs me when a man comes on here saying they are trans and people say oh I didn't mean you, I wouldn't mind you in my bathroom because you're ok.

I don't want to be in any space with a man who is so mentally ill he thinks he's a woman.

*feel

If you get to the point where you can fill your blood pressure rising, it's a good antidote.

No. I've read the odd article.

Oddsockspissmeoff

Do you ever hang out on Gendertrender?

I don't know why we can't call some of these offenders exactly what they are, crossdressers or transvestites.

Transgender peoples crimes should really be recorded seperately from everyone elses as it really does seem that their offending rates are above average for even their natal sex. Of course it may well be that trans crimes are nearly always reported on where male crimes are not unless they are exceptionally horrid. Either way, no WAY should crimes by any kind of male be logged a as female crime. And it is irresponsible of papers and such to report transwomens crimes as 'womens' without clarifying the 'trans' part as its giving people the impression that out of nowhere we have a bunch of females committing violent crimes and sex offenses.

Mind you, it might mean that the SAGE test is also guilty of hate crimes for telling most of Mumsnet that they are obviously transgender?

I've just seen on the other thread that the CPS is telling schoolchildren that 'outing someone as transgender is a hate crime'.

I had no idea that 'saying someone is male' was a hate crime. I am now officially weirded out -- and probably a criminal. Shucks.

venus I've been thinking that we should call transwomen 'transgendered males' and transmen 'transgendered females' so that it is clear that sex is a fact that cannot be changed, but acknowledging their belief in and commitment to gender out of respect.

Ok thanks. Yes, it's a tricky one.

Beach

I think you're right about the insidious nature of the language. People are hearing "transwomen" and subconsciously getting the message that they are indeed women.

Androgen insensitivity doesn't give the advantage. Some intersex people don't know they are XY until they are teenagers. Although they are XY, their insensitivity to androgens is the reason they didn't develop into obvious boys in the womb and are classified as female at birth. So they can't process the testosterone, etc. A number of intersex athletes who didn't know they weren't female have had a humiliating time of it, because their unusual abilities and appearance has called into question their right to compete as females and they'very been subjected to testing. However, even if internal testes and XY chromosomes are found, they are sometimes allowed to compete as females because of lower testosterone. Although I hate to give intersex people any more crap to deal with, I think there is something about XY that gives males the advantage - not just higher testosterone levels.