Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

I've noticed that too odd and wondered if it's beca use we are all worried about being transphobic so bend over backwards to be welcoming.

Discussing it in general is different from being responsible for the perfect term. I don't see why make who is trans or female who is trans doesn't work plus whatever indivisual details if present ie autogynephilia etc if known. Because all these things have differing terms, which allows discussion around the issues without having to come up with some perfect solution which just should be a problem we should comply with taking on imo

& like I said pronouns don't much mean anything much to me so I find it impossible to relate on that one sorry

We say openly that we don't want them in our showers and competing in our sports. Then a man turns up claiming to be a woman and we backtrack and say oh no, we don't mean you. You're genuine. We discuss sexual assaults with them and thank them for their views and for understanding women. And we call them her and she. And we just lap up their bullshit about how they suffer male violence and discuss with them what it means to be a woman

Exactly. I don't. And I won't. I do mean them too. No man is a woman, ever. I think that someone who genuinely believes they are the opposite sex is mentally ill and I have absolutely no idea why anyone would agree with them that it is their body which is wrong. I have sympathy with mental illness, however that doesn't mean I need to collude in a fantasy or live in a dystopian novel.

But then Carole you have to subcribe to the idea of it being possible to 'live as a woman' which is a pretty offensive idea which involves stereotyping us at the very least- and if it also means using women''s toilets/changing rooms and services - then it involves encroaching in on us as part of them demonstrably 'walking the walk' for two years - to prove they are entitled to be called she and her. How about the unsure ones who are just trying out but haven't made it to the full two years?

I don't see why we should do other people's leg work for them.

Well, no. That's quite right.

But the problem with not using preferred pronouns, especially online, is the entire debate gets binned before it's started.

It wasn't long ago that MNHQ automatically deleted posts (and entire threads), on the basis of misgendering.

They seem to be allowing a little more questioning now, along with the rest of mainstream media and people in general.

Personally I'm relieved to refer to someone by their biological sex, because I agree language is crucial to perception and, indeed, thought.

But in terms of fixing labels, and talking about the issue in general. If you want to have any kind of discussion, that's the way it goes. You can make your position clear and then leave the discussion. But any kind of engagement requires this to and fro of what constitutes what, and what the words really mean.

One man's harmless transwoman is another mans raging fetishist with a sexual agenda.

Many people have completely changed their minds, once they realise that these two things aren't the same. We wouldn't be able to do that without talking about these extra categories.

Do you feel that way about Yardley odd? There was a thread saying goodbye & welcome anytime for Yardley. & I never have done any of the things you've said, but I appreciate that does happen. My eldest is utterly petrified of boys & has huge anxiety issues so if a boy was using girls toilets I'd fight it. I'd just stick to m/f rather than deciding I should find the extra right term for him that's all. I'd also want to fight for any gnc male to be accepted in male spaces, as my ds loves dresses (but only little so have no idea if that will stick)

I agree with most of your post odd

I understand the she/her bit but i do struggle to write some sentences coherently using full names or they/them.

And misgendering equals deletion

I will try harder to get my wording right

I posted a while ago about my daughter's experience with a trans boy at school, and sometimes the dynamic on here really reminds me of that.

We say openly that we don't want them in our showers and competing in our sports. Then a man turns up claiming to be a woman and we backtrack and say oh no, we don't mean you. You're genuine. We discuss sexual assaults with them and thank them for their views and for understanding women. And we call them her and she. And we just lap up their bullshit about how they suffer male violence and discuss with them what it means to be a woman.

Why?

Anyone who has gone about gender reassignment the old fashioned way, living as the opposite sex for two years, I will honour their choice of pronoun. They have 'walked the walk' as far as they are able, not just 'talked the talk'. I will accord them 'man' or 'woman' status, as a courtesy title.

Someone who pops on a frock from time to time - no.

I just think it's such a typical 'female' things to fix things for others, to take on their 'job', to help give them their answers. Imo that's not my burden & I don't want to step into that role. I will defend by boundaries as a woman/female & fight any terheology that encroaches on that bit otherwise it's individual transpeoples problem to fix. I'm not using up my energy to provide a solution to someone else problem.

I don't see the need for the 'right' term past the person is male & is trans or female & is trans. If the person then self describes as transvestite or transgender or person with gender dysphoria that's up to them & I don't see why media etc couldnt just say male so & so says they are transvestite etc imo. I don't see why we should do other people's leg work for them.

Spot on Beach.

Pronouns do matter and they matter a lot. It's contributed to us arriving here with the gender bill. How outraged we are that we're going to be legally forced to acknowledge men as women, yet we're doing it on here all the time when we refer to men as she and her. We're happy to play along on line yet we balk at the idea of showering with them.

I don't believe any of the male posters on here claiming to be women support us. I think they like banging their drum and being validated as women. I think they also enjoy hearing about personal female issues, something they wouldn't be privvy to if they weren't pretending to be women.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling 'nice' transwomen 'women'.

I want to refer respectfully to people who behave respectfully.

I want statistics recorded accurately, and I want trans ideology to stop erasing the identity of other people- women, gay children and trans people.

We have to call them something, don't we? And I don't want to be perpetuating something I believe to be wrong.

Yes, and it's the whole problem that males both trans and not trans have with what Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said. "I don't think I had any male privilege therefore I didn't". You did. You had it about things that you didn't even know were problems for women.

Not saying they do, but I don't see why its our job to name transpeople either
Don't see the need past m/f who is trans either. Any other nuance is up to them imo.

Oddsockspissmeoff, totally agree with you here:

It doesn't make sense to me that women are unhappy with men being referred to as women in relation to crimes, sports or bathrooms yet will acknowledge them as women here, on the basis that they seem nice. If someone acknowledges they are male I don't understand why we are referring to them as female when they're not.

Either we're ok with accepting and treating some men as women or we're not. Surely the deciding factor isn't whether they are nice.

Datun, also agree with this:
Someone like tumble, who is probably a very nice person, is definitely going to be able to capitalise on the laws if they change, whilst at exactly the same time, being able to disagree vehemently with the way the transactivists are effecting that change.

This is an excellent description of male privilege. That's how it works. Nice non violent men benefit from male violence and misogyny even if they don't agree with it. Them not agreeing with it whilst benefiting from it is no use to women.

I'm a survivor too, but the tra's feel similar, but I don't see yardley the same & I doubt Yardley is the only transperson who has recognition of women's boundaries & differing experience & needs

The point is that they can come up with whatever terms they like, other people don't have to use them.

Why is it one of three? Transvestites, transgender, mtt, transwoman, person with gebdt dysphoria && they can come up with other terms themselves if they like. As long as their terms don't over ride my experience of being female and being a woman that's up to them. For anything factual like crime stats male/female.

Yes that's fine, wobbly. I understand your position. Other people are fed up with the gaslighting and emotional blackmail. My experience as a survivor of domestic violence and abuse makes me resist it, because it feels very similar.

Pronouns don't mean much in our house, my children all have asd & invert pronouns so I am allways him & their dad her so that doesn't mean much.

Duno tumble/Yardley/@streetvoiceuk don't seem to expect any pretense from us. & can't speak about anyone else. Tra's clearly don't grasp the understanding of biology so I wouldn't feel the need to prioritise their preferences, just don't feel I can complain against another group redefining my terms whilst doing the same to 'them'. So othere than recording etc I kinda think that's their experience. Like I said I expect to be in the minority with this.

For me, there was the small possibility of nuance.

You can have one of three stances.
Transwomen are men
Transwoman are transwomen
Transwomen are women.

I will never accept the last one. I could be persuaded to accept the second one IF it meant they were completely separate in every respect.

However, that negotiation has been taken away. We are only left with the first or the last. And they are certainty not women.

There is absolutely no way of knowing who is a "genuine" transperson or who is not. They're not going to come on here and talk honestly about their fetish. I'm not calling a man with a dick a woman because he's not and I don't care how nice they apparently are. Dressing like a woman doesn't make them women.

There's more and more men coming on here saying they are women gaslighting us and dumping their problems into our lap. And as long as they're "nice" we accept them as women and discuss our personal issues and stories with them.

I feel it has been a liberty taken too far now. At one point women probably felt flattered that there are some men out there who despise their own male bodies and wish they were women and it was such a breath of fresh air from being viewed and treated as disgusting and inferior, so that welcoming these males in and playing along with the pretence of calling them 'she' and 'her' felt like a small price for that flattery. But it all looks very different now doesn't it? We are expected to say it was never a pretence.

Like I said not woman or female, I wouldn't term anyone trans that bit otherwuse their experience their words, as long as that recognises that their biology is different from mine/socialisation has been different from mine.