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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

406 replies

PippaFawcett · 22/09/2016 19:40

Absolutely no mention AT ALL in the BBC coverage that celebrated 'female' fell runner Lauren Jeska's reason for attempting to murder an athletic official is because she was discovered to be transgender and could have lost her titles, because obviously the women competing against her were at an unfair disadvantage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37439875

I was baffled at Jeska's motivation until I read the DM's version: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801806/Former-fell-running-champion-Lauren-Jeska-admits-attempted-murder-former-rugby-player-Ralph-Knibbs.html#comments

Usual disclaimer that I have no issue with transgender people but this complete denial of the facts of biology does no-one any favours. And I presume this crime will go down as being perpetrated by a woman?

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Backingvocals · 19/03/2017 23:07

Can't believe that fawning article in the Guardian. Someone nearly died - this was unprovoked attempted murder. But the UKA should learn lessons Shock. Hope Ralph Knibbs makes a formal complaint. It's disgraceful.

DickToPhone · 19/03/2017 17:16

Some of the comments on the original story are interesting

www.facebook.com/countytimes/posts/1087589801279454

"She's is a woman haha we weren't sure hahah"

" no yeah 🙈 serving her nearly everyday shocking! We always said their was something dodgy "

" 'Roids!"

Also check the comments here

www.facebook.com/brumpolice/photos/pb.346660379556.-2207520000.1458937639./10154018762789557/?type=3

"Its ironic, when a man has been jailed for his crimes there are loads comments like "yes, get that scum bag off the streets" but when a woman is convicted there are not many comments.....
"

"many womens are worser than mans."

DickToPhone · 19/03/2017 16:59

He's been in a woman's prison for about a year now I believe

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/machynlleth-runner-court-over-attempted-11237611

Kennington · 19/03/2017 16:53

I give her 5 minutes in a women's prison before there is a violent incident.
Given the nature of her crimes and therefore strength it is downright negligent to put her in with other female prisoners. She would need plenty of supervision I would have thought.
The article is an insult to the victim who now has life changing injuries.

Notafish · 19/03/2017 15:12

GallivantingWildebeest I managed to find the piece I mentioned earlier in this thread. In case you are still interested it's here. This was from 2011 in the House of Lords, and not specifically about sports, but I found what he said interesting and thought I would share it. hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2011-06-27/debates/11062712000043/GenderRecognition(ApprovedCountriesAndTerritories)Order2011?highlight=gender%20sport#contribution-11062712000014

"There are several potential problems related to the recognition of the physical and physiological advantages attached to men and women in different competitive activities. This was reflected in my amendment, which was accepted by the then Government. It stated:

“A sport is a gender-affected sport if the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one gender would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other gender as competitors in events involving the sport”. "Fairness in competition is facilitated by making provision for competition by categories other than sex—for example, age and weight. However, the latter categories are easy to define using the arbitrary limits of date of birth and weight on a specific date before or the day of competition. One of the intentions of the Gender Recognition Act was to protect the rights of individuals who wish to blur the boundaries between genders in their private lives. For sport, that is inherently problematic. It denies the only arbitrary limit between the categories of male and female: genetic sex at birth, as determined by chromosomes. The regulation of single-sex competition in sport currently depends on that arbitrary limit. Since the EHRA allows for the interests of the community at large to override the rights of the few, that arguably would mean that single-sex sporting competition may continue without legal challenge on the basis of sex at birth."

Excuse my in-articulation. I know what I want to say in my head and have problems making my points in writing. So, back to the sports and fairness issue.

At my DD's school, a classmate was not allowed to take part in a regional tournament because she is 2 months older than the cut off date (at school she's in the year below the year she should be in). Everyone respected this. The officials who run the tournaments are supplied with students' dates of birth. It's a non-negotiable cut-off for who and who is not eligible to compete. There was no 'case by case basis' allowed to be considered here - even though she's smaller than most of her year group and hasn't been playing the sport longer than any of her year group. But the rule exists because it is possible schools could try to enter someone from older year groups who have an unfair advantage. This might not ever have happened but it is recognised that it could happen and it's easier for everyone to have a straightforward rule. So why is it not enough to recognise that mtt could use their position to gain an unfair advantage competing against females. Why aren't we allowed a straightforward rule to retain female sports for female-born women.

The guidance that has been produced for sports clubs (that I've read) only mentions hormone levels potentially being an issue for transgender people. Who has produced the guidance, how legally binding is it and why has consideration not been given to other unfair advantages owing to physiological differences between males and females?

Datun · 18/03/2017 18:34

Gah!

Datun · 18/03/2017 18:34

picklemepopcorn

I do. Mainstream media are coming out with more critical articles. Two high-profile feminists have spoken out. The balance has certainly tipped on Mumsnet - it wasn't like this eight or nine months ago.

Below the line comments are much more critical. Even the fact that so many comments are deleted yet still upvoted prior to deletion, is a good sign.

Transactivists have gone beyond the tipping point of sanity with the claims they are making. All good.

The Daily Mail, I suspect, is on a very slow burn crusade about this.

Even if people are uncomfortable talking about the claims versus the facts, at the very least, they are making a big fuss about censoring and no platforming.

Datun · 18/03/2017 18:33

picklemepopcorn

I do. Mainstream media are coming out with more critical articles. Two high-profile feminists have spoken out. The balance has certainly tipped on Mumsnet - it wasn't like this eight or nine months ago.

Below the line comments are much more critical. Even the fact that so many comments are deleted yet still upvoted prior to deletion, is a good sign.

Transactivists have gone beyond the tipping point of sanity with the claims they are making. All good.

The Daily Mail, I suspect, is on a very slow burn crusade about this.

Even if people are uncomfortable talking about the claims versus the facts, at the very least, they are making a big fuss about censoring and no platforming.

picklemepopcorn · 18/03/2017 18:28

Do you think the tide is turning? More people are speaking out?

picklemepopcorn · 18/03/2017 14:08
Grin I needed that. My jaw is clenched from wrestling with everything today!
ageingrunner · 18/03/2017 14:01

Yeah that must have been what I meant Grin

GuardianLions · 18/03/2017 13:38
Grin
Datun · 18/03/2017 13:30

Likely, possible. Almost inperceptibly definite

picklemepopcorn · 18/03/2017 13:22

Maybe definitely could be. Definitely.

ageingrunner · 18/03/2017 12:03

Might probably was? Confused

ageingrunner · 18/03/2017 11:55

Yes I always thought she might probably was but this confirms it. The more people questioning it in public, the better

venusinscorpio · 18/03/2017 11:42

Hadley is quite gender critical I think.

Oddsockspissmeoff · 18/03/2017 11:22

I don't know what to say about him going to a woman's prison.

Bambambini · 18/03/2017 09:42

I think that Guardian article is encouraging actually. I think they are starting to change their previously only pro trans stance and now opening up the discussion. I thought the article was quite damning in an almost passive aggressive tone.

JigglyTuff · 18/03/2017 08:04

It also quotes her parents as saying that Jeska took 'not just one, but two' knives. As another poster pointed out on another thread, he took three.

Can we complain to the PCC about this article? I can't imagine what it must be like for the victims of this horrific assault to read this outpouring of sympathy for their assailant Sad

PoochSmooch · 18/03/2017 06:45

Good analysis dick.

The article is full of contradictions.

Jeska was terrified of being outed, which is why Jeska wouldn't submit to blood tests - but "Jeska told her parents that the Fell Runners Association (FRA) showed her “amazing support” when she told them she was transgender, as did members of the Todmorden Harriers she came out to". Which is it?

Then there's the fact that there was no documentation of surgery - did it really happen? Events suggest otherwise - why would it cause such a problem to provide the blood tests if all was in order? We only have Jeska's word for it, and you'll have to forgive me if I doubt the word of someone capable of the crime they've been convicted of. Jeska just took it upon themself to decide that they were fit to compete. Such arrogance and entitlement. ALL athletes at a certain level have to be prepared to submit to testing for doping. What makes Jeska think they didn't have to?

As for it coming completely out of the blue, I doubt that too. Comments like this: "The twins always used to refer to their elder sibling as “the golden child”, "Mum, you always wanted a daughter, didn’t you?" and "We had three children and she was the only one I thought might give us grandchildren" make me wonder what sort of unhealthy dynamic was going on.

All of this makes me very nervous of where self-identification and lowering the bar for natal males to compete in women's sports is taking us. This is just one case, but I worry that Jeska could actually be quite representative of the type of transgender person who would crash into female sports - entitled and unstable. Does the rejoinder "people are just trying to quietly get on with their lives" hold true in the face of events like this?

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 18/03/2017 02:39

“Yes, she objected to her transgender status becoming public knowledge, but she was secure in her no-longer-new identity. She has taken coaching very seriously and has deep concerns that UKA might deal in a similarly insensitive way with younger runners, not so secure in their identity.”

It is dealing with it in an insensitive way to do blood tests to check hormone levels of males who wish to be females competing against born females? Fuck me. Should we just let them all get on with it and not bother about the cheating?

I notice the guardian makes no attempts to point out that it is not only testosterone that gives males an advantage over females in sports. Wonder why Hmm

DickToPhone · 18/03/2017 02:17

and btw, despite Jeska being a convicted attempted murderer, his results still appear as records all over the internet. So much for that, huh.