'Attractive'/'feminine' women treated differently in everyday social interactions?

The term "lady lawyer" was widely used before about 1980 and it is still used but much less often now. For example:

www.thebalance.com/the-dos-and-don-ts-of-dressing-as-a-lady-lawyer-2164333

TwoLittleChickens wrote - "we went to buy ice cream and coffee from a kiosk. The young man who served me was friendly and helpful. He said things like "What can I get for you love?" and "would you like chocolate on that my love?"... Although I'm a feminist I do not mind being called "love" and "sweetie" in these contexts, but I obviously wouldn't want to be spoken to this way at work."

You were spoken to this way at work. Of course, it wasn't in your workplace while you were doing your work, it was at his workplace while he was doing his work. Why is his use of the terms "love" and "sweetie" more acceptable in his workplace?

I agree with some PPs who think the cons outweigh the pros. I find that people often don't take me seriously in tricky situations such as complaining or asking for a refund. I have far fewer problems if I have a man with me - even if he's just hovering in the background! It's been less of an issue at work.

It can be as simple and clichéd as wearing glasses. As a life-size long speccy person I can tell you that wearing specs cancels out any average amount of effort made with hair, make- up etc. Silly assumptions about being unapproachable due to intelligence etc.. if you go OTT you may manage to trigger someone's sexy librarian fantasies but generally I found, in my younger days, it was : specs off= attention, specs on = invisible.

Babies I find are also very useful for this...I do about 10x more random chit chatting now I have a baby in a pushchair.

I always try to dress a bit more smartly now I've had the baby as otherwise people think I'm a lot younger than I am.

interesting views
I have a baby face, so in spite of being 40 I find that both men and women tend to take a protective attitude. I am petite as well (though I have gained weight) and do a lot of muscle work. Around offices I often find both men and women saying "don't carry that" because there seems to be an assumption that a small woman can't be strong.

Funniest occasion was on aeroplane with my sister, a woman actually said to her husband (just as we were about to lift our bags into the overhead locker) "ooh do you think you should help those girls...oh wait, no, they don't need any help!" - this last as we lifted them (my sister is very slim and can lift twice the weight I can).

Interesting assumptions all round.

"What makes you think you can just walk in and get what we need?"

"They're called boobs, Ed."

But doesn't that kind of contradict what you said? You've admitted that as a pretty 20 year woman doesn't get taken seriously

No that is not what I said. There might have been a few incidents when I was ypung but on the whole not being taken seriously has not been a problem.

I do agree that how you present does come into it. I've always been confident.

I'm always quite formally dressed , even when not at work, it's simply more comfortable and natural for me. Someone mentioned being treated with indifference when wearing chinos and tshirts- I expect that is correct but if I had to describe what I look like then I'm far closer to Anna Wintour than middle aged mum in chinos.

I am actually looking forward to getting a few grey hairs to be honest, hoping to be taken more seriously at work. I don't find my husband has this issue as he looks so much older with his stubble, and despite starting with the same company in the same year as me, in a similar role, with the same salary, he has now had a couple of promotions and is on twice my salary

And you think the reason for this is that you look young ? That sounds quite unusual , very few jobs have " having grey hair " as a genuine occupation requirement . Why don't you just get grey highlights?

As a GP, I often hear patients (usually the old ladies) ask to see "the nice lady doctor". no offence taken in this case as they usually want to see me about something Gynae related.

I think it has a lot to do with weight. I've lost and gained 3+ stone a couple of times since I was 18. There seems to be a lower-weight point at which men start noticing me and flirting. I'm not very comfortable with it and I think teenage me possibly hid behind the weight on purpose. Women seem friendlier too, but maybe not if really dressed up and made up and slim.

When I have a Dr appointment or similar I take care to 'perform femininity' to some extent (in a muted way) because I feel people take you more seriously or maybe respect you more. Which is sad really.

On assuming sex by title - I think I used to do this, but over the years have trained myself not to assume and now I genuinely don't.

Also I noticed that, for the first time yesterday, a young adult man was reacting to DD1 (11) in a more grown up way as he was serving us in a café, sort of mildly flirting and being all chatty and in a different way adults sometimes do with children. Nothing horrible, but my spidey senses were just noticing something different all of a sudden.

if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old.

I seem to have gradually morphed from not being taken seriously to being slightly intimidating, since the age of 30 or so.

Bit surprised by this eureka moment.. thought every one knew this was how things worked? Including service staff where you use your youth and looks to get more tips .... and helps with getting hired too... erotic capital. Reverse side is how you get treated for not "making an effort", not playing the game ... to make up for not being naturally pretty, slim ... no wonder teenage girls struggle emotionally.

The French House in Soho - age blind bar staff. Love em.

I definitely don't get served as quickly at the bar as in my early 20s.

I'm not sure. I'm in my fourties, no longer wolf whistled, but haven't quite got the invisibility cloak yet. I get treated really well when coming from work in a suit or a dress and carrying briefcase. I get treated with more indifference when wearing chinos and t shirt, carrying a shopping bag. That is true even for the school run parents and teachers, more of them great me enthusiastically and stop for a chat. These are people who, whilst not friends, know who I am and what I do, independent of my outfit. Same goes for shops, taxis and GP receptionists. It is weird. I wonder if I do it myself... I hope not.

Ah, yes, the served at the bar test, Matilda!

I'm far more likely to stand my ground with a firm "Excuse me, I was here before you" than in my youth - but then I need it more than I did when men were happy to let me go first and the bartender would overlook other people who had probably been there longer to serve me (in my defence, if I knew other people should have been served first, I would usually say so)

One thing I've noticed is that it depends very much how you present yourself. I genuinely think that apart from a couple of percent of people who are genuinely beautiful, the rest of us, it's a case of "scrubbing up well". In my early 30s I went through phases of "performing femininity" and phases of "can't be arsed" (often running in parallel, so I'd shift from one day to another). I realised two things - (1) for most people, looking good is largely a smoke-and-mirrors type illusion; anyone can look good (in a socially acceptable sense) if they dress nicely, get a hair cut that suits them, adhere to socially accepted standards of grooming and (2) whether you play the game makes a massive difference to how you are treated by others.

I'm in my 50s Lass, and quite senior. I find professionally it doesn't matter - I am taken seriously because of what I have to say. But outside in the big bad world I have undoubtedly donned the menopausal cloak of invisibility. Getting served at a bar in front of a man of pretty much any age or an attractive younger woman? Forget it.

"I know personal experience counts for nothing on FWR unless it validates the given that women are treated badly but my own experience is, that if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old."

But doesn't that kind of contradict what you said? You've admitted that as a pretty 20 year woman doesn't get taken seriously. Isn't that the point? That they should be? I don't look at good looking young men and think they are incompetent or trivial. But when it comes to young women there is a certain paternalistic benevolent sexism that stops them from being seen for who they are as individuals.

As I've grown older and lost my looks I no longer get served as quickly in shops and get treated more dismissively in retail.

I feel happy that I don't get street harassed anymore but sad that in the past people were only being nice to me because of my looks. I was under the impression that everyone was just nice to everyone because.

I'm often envious of the way men are treated more politely both by men and women, all that hand-shaking, "sir" and "mate"-ing. I wouldn't mind some of that!

I'm just now beginning to realise how much discrimination there is in those every day interactions, as I am suddenly looking my age

I know personal experience counts for nothing on FWR unless it validates the given that women are treated badly but my own experience is, that if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old.

I'm just now beginning to realise how much discrimination there is in those every day interactions, as I am suddenly looking my age. (And I thought that people were genuinely interested to talk to me, not just consider what it might be like to get in my pants )

It happens all the time. When I was young I was conventionally pretty and got treated really well by most men without deserving special treatment. Now I'm old and overweight and totally invisible. Except when I wear something that reveals cleavage. Then it's back to the smiles and going out of their way to help me. I find it quite amusing. Pretty sure it's an unconscious reaction. And women do it too. In my experience, women are much nicer to you in shops and cafes if you are slim and made up than if you're portly in glasses and mum jeans.