"BDSM is a sexual orientation, not a fetish"

lemon I don't see anything positive in acting out other people's suffering for sexual kicks. It's not positive to degrade or dominate others nor to be degraded or dominated. It seems to have been around for as long as hierarchies have existed so it's hardly edgy.

"She wanted to join what she saw as a glamorous lifestyle"

Hmm...thats interesting. It doesnt really sound like it was the lifestyle for her so I'm glad she got out.

I gravitated towards a sub role before I knew anything about the "scene". I personally dont go to fetish clubs or anything that involves being in public, all done with people I know and trust in my home - I also dont tell people about it unless they're very close friends. It started from a young age, beginning with being facinated by restraints in a way I couldnt explain. I've never seen it as a club I wanted to join, in fact spent most of my teens feeling like there was something the matter with me.

I dont see myself as abused or opressed. Am happy and I have the kind of relationship I always wanted.

Have to say, though, that Ive met some Doms that should come with a health warning!

I do not believe that people from birth belong to BDSM roles. No one is born a slave or master, but is shaped that way by society and experiences.
I do know that some people are born with a lack of empathy and are more likely to act dominant, controlling and abusive.

My friend made calculated decisions. She wanted to join what she saw as a glamorous lifestyle. As a young woman, the message was that she ought to be a sub. Being a sub sucked, so she choose dom. In the end, even though she got her highs from SM scenes she again made the choice to leave it behind and engage in healthy equal relationships. She isn't the only woman who has experienced something similar. For example, many young women got into BDSM (and then left) because of past rape and abuse. There is an idea going around that it's supposed to help them cope with trauma; as if being pretend raped all over again by a sadist man is going to heal them.

Odd? Odder to keep the abuse private I would have thought.

Yes I'd quite like to know the answer to that question too, Buffy.

Also agree with Flora's post @ 16:26.

Sorry snow that didnt come out as I meant it to. Yes I do know people who are Switches and enjoy both however I and lots of my friends just are one or the other and we couldn't be anything else and didnt choose it; I was it before I even knew what it was. Does that make sense?

That being said, I know people that are Switches and enjoy back and forth but havent heard of anyone actually choosing to change from S to D before, thats interesting!

This is odd. I have no problem with (healthy, consensual) BDSM or any other kink or fetish, but it seems like something that should be private! Why people would want to 'come out' about their particular turn-ons is beyond me. Unless you're my current or potential sexual partner, I really don't need to know.

Interesting Thread- I just cant understand why BDSM is not identified as the structured abuse it most certainly is and why the LBG community would, in any form, wish to be associated with it.

prawn I didn't express that very well. I mean that normative human sexual behaviour is within the same spectrum whether you're attracted to men or women. The sexual response and triggers and function are all within a range regardless of sexual orientation. The sexual orientation is what makes you gay, straight or bi, but sexual behaviour and response isn't the same as sexual orientation.
BDSM isn't a sexual orientation, it's a deviation, because it's a sexual behaviour and response outside of normative human behaviour. It becomes a fetish if it's the only way that a person is sexually aroused.

And you definitely dont pick if you're a D/S, you just know.

Strongly disagree. There are people who do both. A friend of mine wanted to get into BDSM and started as a sub. However, she ended up as a dom. She found it to be the safest option. In the end she left the subculture because she couldn't stand all the misogyny and abuse of young women.

This is infuriating. How dare they compare the fetishising of unequality to loving relationships between people of the same sex?

Bugger off from the LGB, kinksters. If they are added, paedophilia could definitely be added next - and God knows what else. Both these groups have been trying hard before.

Notice though, that it's a "queer" organisation. If LBG people are now labelled with the offensive word "queer" - strange - it makes sense that anyone else sexually strange would be allowed under that category.
That's another thing I find offensive, it's not queer or strange to fancy someone of the same sex.

flora disagree with your blanket assumption that all BDSM relationships arent positive and bizarre lumping it in with pedophilia

One has nothing to do with the other.

Hmmm I dont necessarily see BDSM as an orientation but I think its more complex than a fetish. It's certainly a way of life. And you definitely dont pick if you're a D/S, you just know.

BDSM isn't a sexual orientation. It is a social construct. It is just using the hierarchy of gender or sometimes subverting it. If gender roles/patriarchy/oppression didn't exist, it wouldn't exist.

"The sex (male or female) of the person who is causing the arousal isn't relevant."

What do you mean, Mephisto? I'm confused.

NinaSimone I've apologised once already. All I said was that experts believe that, rather than being a fetish/paraphilia, paedophilia is an orientation, like heterosexuality, and just as resistant to change. I'm not trying to slur anyone.

Nina it's appalling isn't it? Paedophiles tried this in the early 70s. I'm a bit sceptical about the "born this way" argument about homosexuality. I get that it's useful in conservative cultures to persuade people to accept homosexuality but it isn't necessarily progressive in itself. I have no idea why some people are gay because (a) it's none of my business and (b) being gay is a positive and beneficial way of life. I don't care if paedophiles or BDSM'ers are born that way as they are not positive or beneficial ways of life.

Does that mean we have to listen to politicians "coming out" as BDSM soon ?

Normative human sexual behaviour involves being sexually aroused by touching of certain erroneous zones, talking about touching of those zones, thinking about it and doing it, and those zones include (but aren't limited to) genitals and secondary sex organs like nipples. Orgasm is desired and achieved through genital contact. The sex (male or female) of the person who is causing the arousal isn't relevant. Many people deviate from normative sexual behaviour, but they are deviations. BDSM is a deviation, if a deviation becomes the only way that sexual pleasure can be reached then it's a fetish.
BDSM isn't a sexuality. Sexuality relates to the sex of the people who cause you to be sexually aroused, not the type of activity that does it.

I get it. Definitely misunderstood your first post!

"I don't think the conclusions you are drawing are correct."
I don't think I was trying to draw a conclusion, since I know where I'm starting from (the patriarchy exists!). Just that male homosexuality isn't necessarily as much a threat or a tool to be used against women as lesbianism is. Indeed, just the fact that male and female homosexuality have been treated differently tells you that there is more going on here than hetero vs homo! And I remember the girls kissing girls to attract the blokes thing from the 90s(?) (whereas AFAIK there wasn't a similar thing with blokes kissing blokes to attract the girls?). So pseudo-lesbianism becomes just another kink to please the (straight) men.

Frankly, I think many men still have a bigger problem with gay men and gay male sex than they do with straight BDSM (in terms of the whole thinking about what they get up to makes me feel ill defense for homophobia, or the bottom argument as my gay male friends used to call it!).

You can have a gay or lesbian marriage or couple, you can have a gay or lesbian family, you can't have a BDSM family. The analogy falls apart! It's not about sexual practices, but sex in terms of biology (of your partner)!

flora I utterly agree. I had to leave the thread as there was comparisons between paedophilia and homosexuality. The fact this is also know being touted as sexual orientation is awful.

This seems to me like another encroachment into LGB space. If I was a L I'd be furious. What spaces are left for young lesbians to come of age without having men impose their fetishes on them?

I'm sure you're right, SomeDyke. Trans seems to have been taken up by all the gay/lesbian groups and charities because they need a new source of funding, and their leaders want to look cool and edgy. The co-chair of GLAAD is a TW and the organisation celebrates a TW who has made repeated threats against lesbians. Lots of lesbians online say they've stopped donating to such groups. They feel very betrayed and who can blame them?