"BDSM is a sexual orientation, not a fetish"

Oh, I'm out and proud as vanilla! Or I used to be when I actually had a sex life, back in the mists of prehistory Mind you, that'll be top of the range, still see the little black seedy specks, Cordon-Bleu, Michelin starred vanilla.

Seriously, where did this idea come from that orgasms are better orgasms if they come accompanied by leather, handcuffs, dangling from the lampshade? Fine if that's what floats your boat, but why do so many people seem to insist that those of us getting our jollies in more conventional ways are somehow sexually inferior?

This thread illustrates some of the issues. Rejection of BDSM as a 'sexual orientation' shouldn't be on the grounds that you think it is weird/dangerous/offensive. But you can understand why some people, getting that reaction, are trying to sneak it in as 'just another maligned sexual orientation' remembering the abuse aimed at lesbian and gay people because of what they were assumed to do sexually as well as who they do it with.

Whereas actually, many gay sexual practises are pretty ordinary, and the only issue for many people was the sex of the person that they were doing them with. And we shouldn't collude with that by pretending the problem for gay people was the same as the problem for folks into BDSM. It isn't comparable or analogous.

It's the same messing about with language that we have seen already with sex/gender. Also, we had there some people trying to redefine homosexual as someone who is attracted to someone of the same gender (rather than the same sex). Whereas the BDSM ploy seems to be redefining homosexuals as people who like homosexual sexual practises, hence any other maligned participants in non-majority sexual practises free to join the same grouping.

As someone else already said vanilla gets maligned a lot, so can we join too??

Oh my aching butt. Really? Where does this all end? Bunch of attention seeking weirdos who would do very well to keep their odd predelictions to themselves, not trying to seek 'rights' and publicity.

You'd think they'd be embarrassed. I don't even like my cleaner folding my pants. Have they ever heard of discretion.

Stepping out here as I don't need counselling and find the suggestion I do offensive. I'll be damned if I'm staying in an unfulfilling vanilla relationship just because some other people out there are behaving badly.

Exactly Snowshimmer -Its simulating and normalising the terrible abuse suffered everyday by many (mainly)women . Those who are 'sub' should receive counselling- the 'Doms' should be prosecuted. Radical I know but its just not acceptable. BDSM- Bondage ,Domination, sadism & masochism. The clue is in the name.

Knowing nothing at all about what BDSM is really about (trust, respect, communication, CONSENT)

It isn't called TRCC though, it's called BDSM - bondage, domination, sadism & masochism. And that's what's it's really about. You can get trust, respect, communication and consent in normal relationships. What makes BDSM unique is that ritualized "pretend" unequality and abuse.
I don't mean to jump on this comment or you as an individual however I see these statements all the time adn it bothers me, that BDSM is REALLY all about trust and consent. Well why the need for all that other stuff then?

Knowing nothing at all about what BDSM is really about (trust, respect, communication, CONSENT)

And getting off on acting out real people's real misery.

Whether our sexual orientation is innate or not, to what extent it is changeable/a possible choice, nature/nuture is a different issue, frankly.

"a strong preference, nothing to do with what's expected. " Except being born into a patriarchy, it was never a 'free choice'..........

Bonobos. Hetero and homo, and almost everything else, shows what evolution can do with sexual pleasure for social purposes.

Innateness and fixity isn't really the issue, or shouldn't be the basis for gaining your human rights or legal protection.

Who knows how many women would/could chose lesbianism if we were free of the patriarchy? We just don't know! How many should chose it given that we're not is a much more contentious question!

I'm not sure about born this way arguments. The evidence from reparative therapy is that you can't drug, psych or pray the gay away, and trying to do so is totally unethical even when the people concerned want it.

I know I'm very heterosexual, a strong preference, nothing to do with what's expected. In my 20s I explored my sexuality with other women but it just didn't work, though at the time I really wanted it to. Not a flicker, though I have very affectionate female friendships.

Otoh, I've enjoyed very mild BDSM with 2 men (separately) with whom I could be utterly vulnerable and trusting and found it quite inspiring/moving. There is a level of, I don't know, faith (?) that's very special.

If you're wondering whether I'm a bit of an old slapper you wouldn't be wrong. Ah, sex. I remember sex...

Of course it's not a sexual orientation. Orientation is what sex of humans you like to shag. Fetish is when you have a particular fascination, to the exclusion of other sexual activity, of what you want to do with the people you shag.

Hasn't Turkey recently legalised child marriage?

Not true.

At the risk of contradicting myself....

While I don't feel like people need to be "out" about BDSM I do think non-sexual meet ups/discussion forums are a good idea, especially to discuss issues of consent. I am aware there are predators out there who use the label of BDSM to manipulate people into doing things they don't want to and as a young person I've experienced this. Knowing nothing at all about what BDSM is really about (trust, respect, communication, CONSENT) and knowing no one who had similar inclinations, I was easy prey.

Of course it's much easier to get good advise now we're in the internet age.

I don't feel that people like me or DP are to blame for these bad things happening, although as responsible, age appropriate BDSM practitioners (for want of a better word) I suppose there's an argument for being open to discussing it with others in the right context.

"..so you think they want it to be acknowledged as an orientation to achieve a protected status, and that sort of piggybacks on the gay peoples struggles? "
I think so. Okay, so when we were campaigning for gay rights, the 'people just are/can't help it' was necessary to counter the conversion therapy/disgusting lifestyle choice just to piss us off/unnatural style arguments. Except now those arguments have become too successful (despite, say, evidence from women that female sexuality can be more complicated than this), so the it's innate/it's just who I am style arguments have become the template for arguments by other groups, and also a supposed analogous situation (transphobia compared to homophobia, for example), leading to the whole LGBTQIAfuckknows nonsense.

Sorry, my response was to somedyke

Ah okay..so you think they want it to be acknowledged as an orientation to achieve a protected status, and that sort of piggybacks on the gay peoples struggles?

As I say, I personally dont think of it as a fetish, more a lifestyle, but all the BDSM elements of my life are centered around my bedroom, so therefore private! Cant imagine wanting to "come out" or do anything in public. A lot of people I know who are into the public scene are raving exhibitionists though so perhaps they feel differently. I find all the public stuff pretty cringey tbh. Personally find it far more special focusing on someone that loves you than a random who could be a total loon.

Also dont understand how BDSM is opressed....its bloody boomimg from where I sit! Incredibly acessable.

I will always argue against people who say its inherently wrong or abusive, however, as in the right context it can i believe it can be very, very positive and fulfilling.

Ah, Mephisto, now I understand. Thank you.

I asked Google if BDSM was a fetish. Seems some think it's a load of over-lapping fetishes.

I have mixed feelings. I don't doubt that some people have loving relationships in which BDSM features. But I've heard too much about the exploitation of young women by older men and women being injured/raped in supposed safe settings. Women with low self-esteem and histories of abuse get sucked into the culture, the link being the level of attention a dom will pay a sub.

Obviously people's sex lives are entirely their own affair unless others are harmed, but in BDSM harm's part of the point. Some people are quite zen about it, others more John Wayne Gacy.

I'm with Buffy. How are BDSM participants being oppressed? And if they are, should they pay us for doing so?

"I'm just chipping in to counter those calling it abuse."
Isn't that the kicker though? You are free to criticize particular sexual practises because you feel they are problematic/abusive/stupid, or just downright weird (like being sexually aroused by sherbet lemons say, due to a youthful fixation on Dumbledore........), even if those indulging in them are two (or more) consenting adults. But if someone gets to label a practise (or a group of practises, like BDSM) as an orientation (hence what a person is in some sense), then that is now out of bounds!

The difference between, say, thinking anal sex isn't the best thing ever, and using the same argument as a closeted attack on gay men, or just thinking gay men are unnatural because of the association between gay men and anal sex. Except there the false link was being made to disadvantage gay men.

I think that is what is being attempted here, and also if successful means that the BDSM people in question could make it a 'lifestyle' and a more public thing on the grounds that rather than being a private sexual practise, it is a 'sexual orientation', hence magically protected (just like gay people)............

Doesn't half piss me off though, the many groups trying to exploit successful campaigns for lesbian and gay rights. See, I'm of a generation when it was mostly L and even letting G in was problematic............

felas I don't know really. I'm not arguing for it to be an orientation BTW, that seems odd. I'm just chipping in to counter those calling it abuse.

I suppose I feel like it is more than a fetish because it isnt centred around one object/dress/activity - its a wide ranging life style choice and means different things to different people and manifests in many ways...I guess maybe kink is a good word? Hard to say, I don't know enough about the definitions.

That is not information that needs to be shared with colleagues though. How would they find out?

I'm an employer and other than if I were sleeping with an employee (which I wouldn't be, as it's generally frowned on anyway) I can't imagine any situation where I would find out one of my employees was into BDSM.

On the other hand if one of my employees was into BDSM and was telling other employees all about what they were up to I would be having a word with that person, accompanied by someone from HR as no other employees should have to put up with being regaled with the details of someone else's sex life.


Even if they both consent and it makes them happy?