Only trans women have vaginas, women have 'front holes'

Yes. Its supposed to just be about what trans people might call their genitals. So my reaction is sorrow rather than anger at ftt who would prefer a 'front hole' to a vagina.

I'm not entirely happy about mtt appropriating 'vagina' - I think its the only instance of using a real biological term being appropriated. If 'front hole' is ok for ftt why dont they just use that too?

And here are men renaming our genitals so they can feel better about themselves.

Why are we assuming it is men that have coined this term? This is presumably what some/most (although I'd absolutely assume not all) trans men use to describe their vaginas. Wouldn't it be their choice of word?

You are misunderstanding the purpose of the text scallops.
It is not proposing to use those terms for men and women (I will not use the dreaded 'cis' word here).
It is using the terms that trans people feel comfortable with using regarding their genitals.

Yes they are referring to our genitals. They are referring to a vagina as a front hole. A hole.

I agree birth canal isn't the right term either. I thought that after I wrote it. My point is that a vagina always seems to be defined in relation to men. What it does for men. And here are men renaming our genitals so they can feel better about themselves.

I think the point that's upsetting people is that they are using the word VAGINA only to refer to a mtf created one ie : only for trans women that have had the surgery to try to recreate one. They are referring to a real one as a front hole, which is pretty degrading.

It's really not ours they are referring toscallop.
A birth canal isn't right either - many women have chosen not to or are unable to get pregnant or give birth vaginally.

No you're right scallops, sheath isn't the right word either.

But it's not just a birth canal either, I don't think.

I think the human body is a wonderful thing, all of it. But I give a special shout out to the female parts of it, because for 2000+ years they've been called dirty and shameful, so I'm redressing the balance.

And it is not their genitals they are referring to. It is ours.

A vagina is not hollow. And it is not a sheath. It is a birth canal.

Men have front holes too, on the end of their penises or straplesses, or shenises, or whatever they call them now.

It's still a hollow sheath or tube.

Don't get me wrong, as I've already stated I would never call my vagina a front hole. But I don't have an issue with a trans person referring to their genitals as they wish.

I think the human body is fascinating. I don't think my vagina is any more wonderous than my kidneys.

Why is calling the wonder that is a vagina a "hole" offensive??

Where to start...because the vagina is not a hollow place, it's more like a sheath, a flexible, elastic tube, which forms one part of the female sex organs. So if you would like to reduce the magnificently complex structure of the vagina, the vulva, the mons pubis, the clitoris, the labia and the cervix to a "hole", then be my guest. As you point out above, people get to call their bodies what they want. But I won't be joining you in that.

No itcould. Men have penises. MTF have strap ons. According to that leaflets definition.

I am stunned that people think it is OK for vaginas to be called front holes in any context. It is so misogynistic.

No itcould I read it that a strapless was an actual penis. So, a woman would wear a strap on. A transwoman would have a strapless.

Yeah, I do think it's a bit bizarre. I would never refer to my vagina as a front hole. But they are not asking for that.

Also, the definition of hole is 'a hollow place'. My vagina is hollow. Could somebody explain why they find it so offensive, keeping the discussion respectful.

I am happy for a transman to call their vagina a front hole in the context of their own sexual relationship. It's got fuck all to do with me.

I get that it's people's own bodies in the context of their own sexual relationships. In fact, since I first posted on this thread, I think my own view has modified a little. I don't get to tell people what they can call their own bodies, or what they can do with them.

But it really, really saddens me that there are women/trans men out there who despise their bodies enough to reduce their vaginas to holes. That is sad. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in a society that gives all women the message that we are lesser because of what's between our legs, and that what is between our legs is itself lesser and wrong.

I was a supporter of the Spartacus and spin off threads, but I think this is a step too far now. That leaflet was specifically designed for trans people discussing Dex and boundaries using language that they are comfortable with.
I am not happy with a transwoman being allowed to use female safe spaces - it could have a direct impact on me.
I am happy for a transman to call their vagina a front hole in the context of their own sexual relationship. It's got fuck all to do with me.

I'm angry about this thread.

Sorry, thinking now that XX isn't right either, because of testicular feminisation

There is a very strong impetus in our society for men to take over and lead in an area in which they get a foothold.

I can sympathise with men who have felt they had a female gender orientation from a young age, and have struggled with identity issues all their lives.

I would wish them a successful transition.

However, I do not think concern for the rights and sensitivities of transgender people entitle the renaming of the gender of XX chromosome women as if we are somehow lesser women. Neither do I think women (XX women) who are homeless or in prison should have to be exposed to erm people with male genitalia who would like to pass as women. And might potentially be sexually aggressive.

I think it is not the way forward to pretend that your genitalia is different to how it is, basically. I think we need to treat the person with respect, and allow for difference, but not fantasise that it doesn't exist.

I too feel assaulted when people use the term cis to describe me.

And I feel assaulted when I am described falsely as homophobic.

Why are these assaults allowed on Mumsnet?

In fact the moment they do they will be accused of being transphobic which I think goes against the 'brand' and image of the site.

I don't either cath but I don't think it's PC enough to make an issue out of.

I don't understand why MN allow the word cis to be used when so many find it insulting.