Only trans women have vaginas, women have 'front holes'

What a load of utter nonsense.
This rubbish is destroying the English language. This is seriously Orwellian stuff.

I am usually able to pick an opinion on anything. The whole trans issue is so sad. Damaged people fighting for an identity in a hostile world. Perhaps making some poor choices as they struggle to find what feels right. Words do matter but they also evolve and the language of trans has not had time to develop.
The wave of hostility and the absolute outrage does not seem to be entirely helpful in reaching a conclusion that is mutually beneficial.

I'm not a fucking cis woman. There's no such thing as a cis woman. The term is grossly offensive.

Yep.

Bitofacow, see that just sounds to me like you are saying either that it is ok for trans people to be misogynistic because they are trans

Or

That it is expected for trans people to be misogynistic because they are trans.

And the rest of us should turn a blind eye and if we don't turn a blind eye to misogyny peddled through weird leaflets about transgenderism then we are faux outraged pearl clutchers.

The reason I care about this leaflet is because I think that one of the next areas that TRAs are going to bring their agenda to is sex education. Considering the increasing number of children who are being transed it seems only fair that school based sex education reflects that, right?

Just watch this space. I haven't googled this to see if it is already happening but I wouldn't be surprised if it were and if not it is only a matter of time.

I do feel a bit sorry for the partner of a transperson who gets handed that leaflet

I absolutely understand what people are saying about it being intended to help the transperson but it does seem to be aimed at both sexual partners

bito that's hardly the point is it? It's not a case of 'what you don't know doesn't hurt you'

The leaflet is for trans people. I am baffled as to why people go out of their way to read it and be outraged. It is manufactured horror. An excuse to be outraged, a touch of the Daily Fails I think.

"Transmen should be able call their own organs whatever they like (so long as they don't re-name mine)."

I don't agree. It makes about as much sense as if I wanted to rename my pancreas because I wasn't happy with it and expected everyone else to refer to it by some other name.

No, it's a pancreas.

And no, that's a vagina. That is the only name of that organ, regardless of which special snowflake person of which special gender it happens to be found in.

It doesn't actually say that it is a leaflet only aimed at trans people though does it?

It clearly states that it is for transgender people, trans expansive (?) and their partners and lovers.

But even if it were aimed only at trans people, "hole" is a misogynistic word when used about women's genitals. Am I to understand that the argument being made here in defence of the leaflet is that it is ok for trans people to be misogynistic, because trans? That's certainly what it sounds like.

Calling neovaginas "vaginas" and actual vaginas "front holes" is positively Orwellian (as well as horribly anti woman) and suggests either extremely serious levels of mental health issues or extreme misogyny.

Whether or not this leaflet is aimed at trans people is moot. Trans people live in society and they interact with girls and women who are not trans. Encouraging delusion and misogyny in trans people will have a consequence for us all and is IMO a really bad idea for trans people themselves.

Encouraging gender dysphoric females to think of their vaginas as "holes" is hideous and deeply misogynistic.

Encouraging gender dysphoric males to think of vaginas as holes and inverted scrotums as vaginas is to encourage delusion, appropriation, misogyny and male entitlement.

I don't care who that leaflet is aimed at - it is a total headfuck. The official but friendly tone is ghastly. It's gaslighting propaganda and I'm amazed that people have attempted to defend it. Can't you see how skewed it is towards MTTs and how disgusting it is towards FTTs??

Being trans does not necessarily mean that you have had surgery, want to transition or use specific pronouns. It’s all about how you understand yourself.

I don't care who the leaflet is aimed at. Anything encouraging the increasing movement towards 'trans is whatever you say it is' belongs in the bin. Give it a year and nobody will think Dave Muscato is anything unusual because this line is becoming more and more common in trans propaganda.

Trans is no longer about a strong disconnect between your body and your brain, feeling your body is wrong, disliking your body, etc. You can be a woman who loves having a penis. You can be a man who gives birth and breastfeeds. If you say you're trans, you're trans. It doesn't have a definition anymore.

I'm sorry o haven't had time to fish reading the thread I'm only half way through and have to go but I just wanted to make a quick observation and come back later. In red to the word hole I too find it completely offensive as a woman however I do take note that this pamphlet is aimed at the teams community and isn't saying that women have holes only that women who are trans may not want to be confronted with the word vagina due to their dysmorphia.... However, since MMT use the term female penis and therefore haven't tried to eradicate their own use of male orientated medical terminology surely a more equality aware term would be male vagina.... There ant e two sets of conflicting rules thrust on women here, in one obstacle were asked to believe that penis' can be female, but that vaginas aren't 'good' enough to simply be reassigned with an alternate gender... They are wrong enough to warrant another word? Well that right here is misogyny of the highest order.

"And I think if we want to "win the war" rather than "win the battle", in the sense that we want to avoid a situation like some American states where misgendering becomes an offence legally, or self-identification becomes enough to gain the legal right to enter women's spaces, we have to be careful not to do what extreme TRAs typically do: namely take stuff out of context to generate offence and whip up a frenzy."

YY Matilda. I'm not sure that picking up health leaflets aimed at the trans communities and getting outraged about them really gets us anywhere... it just makes it easier for transactivists to denounce gender-critical feminists as bigots with no understanding of trans people's lives.

Interesting point, ItsAll, and you've highlighted a gap in my thinking. I was assuming the leaflet was aimed at trans people. But it isn't solely, is it - it's aimed at anyone who might be having sex with a trans person. If I was having sex with a transman, would it be his front hole and my vagina? Would our hypothetical trans man need to consider my feelings about "front hole" as I considered his about "vagina"?

Or would that be "cis privilege". I am content with my vagina-owning and so may not have feelings about names for vaginas other than my own.

Anyway, I think I'm coming across as shouting about this now, and it's probably not going anywhere, so I'm going to pipe down for the moment.

I think there are a couple of issues here:

Unless transpeople only have sex with other transpeople than this terminology will be used more widely.

Transwomen do not have a vagina. As someone pointed out this is the only "technical" word that has been appropriated from elsewhere.

If transmen feel better calling their vagina a front hole than yes, they need help, but if they want a made up name it's no worse than any of the names (foo foo etc) that appear on threads.

But men cannot have a vagina. They just cannot. And they should not appropriate a name from someone else.

It's is notable that trans men don't get to have penis' they get to have dicks - obviously not ok for the correct name to be appropriated from men.

What Matilda said. If transmen don't want to be tethered by nomenclature to a gender they reject, fair enough. Transmen should be able call their own organs whatever they like (so long as they don't re-name mine).

I get that Matilda. Like I said, while I was initially outraged, that then softened to sadness. But if the key to this pamphlet is a balance between accessibilty and accuracy in reaching out to a population, then it ought to have used the phrase "neovagina" for trans women. There are issues in relation to neo vaginas that vaginas don't have and vice versa. That it doesn't, preferring to use the term "vagina" is telling, don't you think? If trans men's feelings aren't to be hurt then the word vagina is still right there, and in the descriptions, the terms used are "vagina or front hole". Are trans men happy with this, I wonder? I don't know and obviously can't speak for them.

I'll hold my hands up and say that yes, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't the hill I want to die on by any means. I'm conflicted here. I hate the thought that people are so damaged they can't stand to name their own body parts, particularly when those body parts have been vilified for years because they belong to women. It just seems to me to be part of the same oppression for women.

But I'll back off the pamphlet and only state that anyone can call their own genitals whatever they so please. Of course they can. But I remain confused about how it is that transactivists get to demand that women not call vaginas vaginas because it's trans exclusive while also happily asserting that women also not mind when the term front hole is used in their community. Because I get a whiff of misogyny from that, I really do.

When I was a girl it was common to hear boys talking about 'getting their hole'. At the time I was extremely uncomfortable with that expression, I'm now in my sixties and would hate to think that my granddaughters will grow up hearing the vagina being commonly referred to as a 'hole'. It's degrading.

I can totally understand that Matilda. I still have a major issue with word hole being used. It isn't necessary.

DroptheSword it is still suggesting calling a vagina a hole. I have a vagina. It is not a hole. Whether they are referring to themselves or not is irrelevant. Can you really not see how calling a female genital a hole is problematic, in the context of women being objectified and regularly viewed as "fuck holes" or basically receptacles for men's dicks?

I also agree with Mephisto about the dissociation from this genitals and the mental health issues surrounding this.

Okay, I am out and proud as gender critical - see the "I am spartacus" threads. But I also have friends who work in public health. The target audience of this leaflet are (among others) FTT who may be so alienated from their own bodies that they don't want to talk about their vaginas - but they still need smear tests and the like. This is an attempt not at being PC, but at reaching out to these people. In the same way, there are leaflets aimed at "men who have sex with men" talking about aids prevention. These leaflets don't use the word "gay" because often these men are suffering from internalised homophobia, and refuse to think of themselves as gay even though they are having anal sex with men and putting themselves at risk of STDs. From the public health perspective, the important thing is to engage with them via whatever means it takes.

If this was a trans activist insisting that "cis" (sic) women referred to their vaginas as "front holes" so as not to trigger the trans community, I'd be outraged. But that is not the context of this leaflet.

And I think if we want to "win the war" rather than "win the battle", in the sense that we want to avoid a situation like some American states where misgendering becomes an offence legally, or self-identification becomes enough to gain the legal right to enter women's spaces, we have to be careful not to do what extreme TRAs typically do: namely take stuff out of context to generate offence and whip up a frenzy. By all means get outraged about a leaflet aimed at women which talks about pregnant persons - this is desperately important because the threat posed to access to abortion by the religious right (both in America and in NI where abortion is still illegal) is a women's rights issue, and we must not have the biological facts underlying our oppression obscured by trans-inclusive language. But don't go off on one about a leaflet aimed at the trans community which is using this language as an outreach technique to ensure that their discomfort with their biology doesn't stop them taking biologically necessary steps - contraception, protection against STDs, cervical smears.

I agree. If you have a vagina that's what you have. Renaming it a hole and a dick doesn't stop it being a vagina. Encouraging people to dissociate from their body parts cannot be good mental health practice surely?

Middle orifice actually would be closer to the truth and less derogatory. It comes across to me as a way of expressing self loathing. That's not healthy.

It is a vagina. That's all the definition that's needed.
I do wonder what the medical profession would make of a group of people redefining "kidney" as "blood cleaner". Or insisting their feet be referred to as hooves. I'm not sure why its ok for sex organs but not anything else.

I'll probably get flamed for this but I genuinely worry that people who are so affected by their body they are unable to use the correct term for an organ are not well enough at that point to be making long term choices. I am not for a second suggesting all teams people are ill; just that an acceptance of the current situation is the best way to prepare to move on psychologically in most circumstances. And I do wonder if this sort of language - which is most definitely misogynistic in tone, hole has been used as a derogatory word from men towards women for a long time - doesn't help reinforce the feeling there is some sort of shame attached.

Agreed Errol, I think it would make much more sense to use a different term as they absolutely have appropriated vagina here.