Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

prawn I suppose we've got Julie Bindel, Sheila Jeffreys, Greer, Raymond et al and all the other old-school radfems trying to speak up about this, but they get no-platformed a LOT. The more people who do speak up though, the better - they can't ignore us all (can they?). I'm in my early thirties, and I haven't come out publicly as gender-critical, mainly because my cousin came out as transgender recently, and I just can't bring myself to rock the boat. I get the feeling that I would get a negative response on platforms like FB but if I broach the subject one-on-one with people they are usually receptive to at least hear the arguments. The one person I couldn't convince was a decade younger - a lovely girl, but very much a member of the Tumblr generation. She wouldn't even listen to the points I was making and got very upset. There is definitely a massive age divide here. I think the awkward thing is that it's easy to get cast as the old fuddy duddy who can't adapt to the brave new world, something that the older generations are often guilty of. The difference in this case is that this is just the same old world dressed up in a sparklier outfit.

Off my nose. (You can tell I'm an ex journalist.)

Because of my age, my circumstances and the people I know I'm not much worried about real life backlash from trans activists. I'm prepared to say publicly what I think.

I know being outspoken is hard, sometimes impossible, for some people. People lose their jobs over opposition to trans ideology. The fact that health professionals have to blog anonymously on www.youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org is, of itself, deeply troubling. I can't think of any other area of medicine where debate is utterly forbidden.

I have none of these considerations. No skin of my nose if I speak up. Perhaps we could get a group of people who don't mind being the "public face" of gender critical feminism? (I know all feminism is gender critical, but perhaps it's easier if we spell it out.)

I know I sometimes do but don't think it's the done thing I refrain from ROFLMAO.

lol*. I thought that link was sort of a classical rickroll. What's the actual link? you've piqued my interest

*just wondering... do we say "lol" on MN?

Bollocks... not that link

Although I do love that.

Good feminist work.

Infuriating trans advocates
.

Buffy - that issue of "trans" historiography - saying retrospectively "so-and-so was really trans" is a very interesting one. Did Joan of Arc don men's armour because she felt she was a man, or because given the restrictions on women's behaviour at the time, it was the only way she could gain political agency? (My answer would be "of course it's the latter" - but presumably this answer isn't self-evident to someone engaged in historical revisionism).

I think the "academic" answer to this sort of historical revisionism would surely to be to ask the anthropological question "is this a one-off, or occasional and sporadic behaviour with no socially organised ideology (for want of a better term) behind it, like the women soldiers in WWI; or is it a socially sanctioned behaviour pattern, like Bacha Posh in Afghanistan or Sworn Virgins in Albania." The former seems to me better described as women as individuals bucking against gender constraints (understood in the old-fashioned social sciences meaning of "gender stereotypes" rather than the newer identity politics sense of "what I feel like inside"). The latter might allow for trans-revisionism, but only if you take it to mean that these social categories actually map onto some reality, rather than being (as many anthropologists take them to be) constructed categories to provide a sort of sanctioned safety valve in societies which have otherwise incredibly rigid and ruthlessly enforced gender roles. (As an aside, I gather in some circles even talking about anthropology in such terms is seen as transphobic).

youra why not read the thread then post your thoughts? I would like to know how I can discuss trans stuff without coming across as "people hating" that's absolutely not my intent

Yeah buffy I know there is a lot to discuss around gender which is why I named a specific poster. Well thought through posts about the nature of gender are good and enlightening. Pontificating wanky bollocks is not

biology was just super simple and didn't have any consequences for how people were treated, then there would never have been any need for feminism at all.

Conversely my view is if you take female biology out of the definition of "woman/female" then it's impossible to discuss those consequences and therefore feminism becomes redundant and replaced by "egalitarianism". I'm sure lots of people are fine with that but I'm not!

Youra FWIW I thought your contribution was useful. My experience with tans teens is very similar.

I am struggling to equate the vulnerable young people I know with the strident activists much talked about on MN
I do wonder how much of an influence these strident activists have had on creating some of these vulnerable young people. Who in some cases I suspect would in the past "simply" have come out.

The hype comes from the activists - what you would be reading here is an utterly unforgiving rebuttal of their arguments. Not people hating - that's just people hating prejudice of your own.

I was refering to many other posts I've read on MN and the general hype around trans rights in the media at the moment.

I don't always read threads but still comment, this one is very long too, but as the title was a question i just thought i would answer with my own experiences. Apologies if this isn't the done thing but I just answered on a whim.

Bert. I'm afraid i avoid threads on mumsnet involving trans discussions because everyone I've read has has me in tears. I just saw the title and wanted to say I call myself a feminist but have strong ties in the trans community :)

Buffy, great post. All I will say is that the pragmatic, strategic discussions and measured action plans don't happen on Mumsnet, they happen in groups elsewhere where all efforts are made to ensure members' privacy is secured to avoid the worst of the death and rape threats that inevitably are targeted at women who speak out to resist this stuff. Also where speech can be freer because people aren't restricted by talk rules that threaten to shut down discussion if misgendering occurs.

Mumsnet is an open discussion forum, and many of us desperately want it to remain a place where (mostly) free discussion happens and minds are changed. As such it has limitations.

The venting seen here, the blunt and undiplomatic discussions may take an entirely different form from the same author in a different context. But that won't always be seen on Mumsnet. I don't think it needs to be.

I'm not sure it's that complicated, Buffy. I mean I know people spend their whole lives studying gender, but most of us - most people in general - find it quite easy to understand that biology is fixed, male and female, while gender is about what society expects of men and women, how the sexes are treated.

All you need to say is that, for example, in the Middle Ages men wore this and did that, while women were only allowed to do x. Even a child can understand the basics of gender.

All that's great and yes, we understand gender roles are based on biology but that is a separate subject than TAs efforts to change the definitions of the words Female and Woman, both of which are biological descriptions.

I agree with microferret - All this is derailing. Feel free to start your own thread about how exactly you feel we should be talking on this subject and why. It might turn out to be an interesting one.

I'm not reading the thread but I'm a lesbian feminist with a afab-masc partner on the trans spectrum and I embrace all trans rights. I know a lot of trans people and they are not men trying to take womens rights. A lot of them are bio female and ftm. Moat of them are not politically minded at all and just want to be left in peace to be themselves. I find it so sad. Its just people hating :(