Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

I don't care if 99% of M2T are lovely, quiet, mind-my-own-business people who are nothing like the nasty activists. If they are such lovely people and they identify so strongly with women and they are the vast majority why are they not making their voices heard above the nasty 1%? Why are they quietly allowing the 1% to represent them, to abolish the rights of the female sex? Why don't we hear the 99% shouting to Maria Miller that they don't want to be in spaces for biological women, that they want to preserve protections based on sex, and not replace sex with gender identity?

How nice for them to be able to mind their own business and turn a blind eye to what is happening to women in their name.

There is Miranda, and there are a few others speaking out. They are a tiny minority, not a vast majority.

The 99% are tacitly complicit if they claim to be against the demolition of women's rights and quietly say nothing whilst those rights are destroyed in their name.

How on earth does it equate to Animal Farm, pimmsy? Who wants to be more equal? Except perhaps the vocal transactivists who want to erode women's rights? What a silly post.

The vast majority of people aren't saying "all trans people are horrible", what they are saying is that we do not want to see laws and attitudes put into place that trample over women's rights. The reason a certain type of trans activist gets mentioned so much is because they are the most vocal and also the ones behind the changes (proposed or already in place). Would love to just ignore them as just fringe elements with no power, but when they are being listened to by people with power then we can't just ignore them.

You come onto this thread where most people are being reasonable and saying "some of you are just mean" are doing exactly what you are accusing us of. Focusing on a few things that you dislike and then using them to erase all of the valid points on the thread.

Someone who self-describes as 'cisgender' probably disagrees (or just doesn't get) quite a lot of what's on the thread.

Not you bert I think the thread was very measured and interesting until last night. I have found some of the latter posts implying all trans people with AGP are perverts and that all women are uncomfortable sharing public loos with trans women erring on the side of prejudice myself.

Actually I didn't like this:
I bet the women just don't want to say anything. Avoid confrontation, be nice, please people, get away quick. I think you are kidding yourself.
I actually couldn't give a stuff about a trans woman, passing or not, just using the loo. In fact I might not even notice. It's hardly toilet etiquette to stare at whoever is washing their hands beside you.
I object to the legislation because I want to be able to tackle male people behaving creepily BEFORE they commit and offence. In my case it is actually not to do with trans people at all.
winchester I think your post does come across as transphobic. You clearly are very uncomfortable with trans people full stop. In my mind this is different than being uncomfortable with the direction of travel of trans legislation.

That's the thing isn't it? If the law wasn't being changed, and has already been changed in Ireland and the US, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if there weren't vocal, aggressive, misogynist transactivists sharing their views all over the place, no one would care much what someone chooses to wear or change their name to. It's just not that interesting. But when it starts to or threatens to affect women's rights, thats when it starts to become something that I don't want to be told I can't talk about, because it's quite frightening how far up the agenda trans issues suddenly are.

Vashta - I can condemn trans people who rape, bully and sideline women's issues.

If the recommendations being made at the moment become law, you and your DDs will be sharing a swimming pool changing room with 'women' like Danielle Muscato. The 1% you're talking about are not just sounding off on Twitter, they're advising the government and getting the law changed.

Vashta, I think when trans people think they pass using public toilets it's often because people are too polite/wary to challenge them.

If I, for instance, spot a MTT quietly using the facilities, I'll act totally normal. No way I'm going to confront them. Women learn very early not to confront strange men, though I like to think I'd speak out if there were children involved.

If there was security outside, like in a pub or at a festival, I might report them, but there very seldom is. I don't like finding men in the ladies, it's threatening and creepy. Doesn't mean I'd call the police, but it doesn't mean it's remotely ok.

Regarding your disappointment at the tone of the debate, I and other posters have detailed why trans activism is incompatible with feminism. Our fundamental beliefs about sex and gender are in opposition. I would say the tone is polite and civilized but the feminist posters simply don't believe that a MTT is a woman. If trans activists demand that we redefine the word, that we stop talking about women's issues that don't include men, there's no common ground.

Sorry should say that i mean that having an alternative or slightly differing view (such as yours) can make the debates fantasic....

vash

The vast vast majority of these threads say that people have sympathy with someone so conflicted, quite a few people have a friend or know some one who is trans and say that they are lovely but....

A lot of people admire wrriters such as Miranda Yardley, they say they woukd stand up for trans rights

Lots of posts are about some transactivists, the way the law seems to be blindly falling down the rabbit hole and the erosion of womens rights

I have never seenanyone denying the existance of trans people, that they should die or they are all evil. I dont doubt some fuckwits believe that but they are not on these threads

But you (and others) just keep on ignoring that, keep coming on and throwing in comments along the lines of "but i dont know any trans people who do that" when no one here said all trans people are like that or "trans people just want to live their lives" when no one here wants trans people to suffer or "trans people have rights" when no one here wants to take them away

And its such a shame because otherwise the debates can be fantastic with some really insightful posts

Thank you VashtaNerada,
I'm cisgender and yet I get very upset reading the rhetoric of this thread, it gives of a real whiff of "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others", your intervention has made it slightly less bad.

What do you mean 'the same pattern'? It is so very thoughtful and respectful. Did you read witch's post?

Sadly those transactivists you and I both condemn are the ones pushing the agenda and changing the law and making women and girls in real life more vulnerable, not on an internet forum, in real spaces where they should feel safe. Be angry with those people and address their hate on social media directly. Maybe you do already? Maybe I'm assuming wrongly?

Yes, trans people have been biffing about for years without all this kerfuffle. But something has changed, and it wasn't feminists who changed it.

So no condemnation of the death threats? Yes, in case it wasn't abundantly clear from my post - I condemn death threats. I condemn trans people who make death threats against women. I condemn trans people who say that lesbians who don't want to have sex with a penis are transphobic. I can condemn trans people who rape, bully and sideline women's issues.

I also believe 99% of trans people do not fit into this category.

As I have said many, many times on these threads - a respectful, thoughtful, pragmatic debate is needed on some of the issues related to gender identity. It's a shame that when this is discussed on MN though, it follows the same pattern each time. I am very, very tired by it all.

So no condemnation of the death threats?

What do you mean, say what I like? What do you find that's fucked up and could you quote? This is disagreement, not abuse.

To be fair the the post about 'truscum' which I agree is not a nice word is quoting what activists say.

So if you're not making death threats you can say what you like? And if I stand up for my trans friends I must therefore not stand up for women?
I really don't see this kind of scaremongering as any different to if MN had daily threads about Muslim suicide bombers and virtually none about normal Muslims. Yes, some trans people (& some Muslims for that matter!) are bad people. But most aren't. And there will be people reading this who don't have trans friends who will start to think about trans people in a negative way. This is so fucking dangerous. I can't be doing with this any more, will have to go back to hiding all the trans threads. I don't think my blood pressure can take it!

Not at all, obviously, or you would see insults here along the lines of 'die in a fire' 'I literally will beat them to death' 'I have a knife, bring one to me' and so on. Nothing bad here.

Uh... yes Winchester. I would be equally angry if I read a thread written by men talking about women in this way. Of course I would

What so it's a race to the bottom?

Do you have the same views on the language used against women I wonder. It's far worse and you know it.

Yeah I can't actually cope with this discussion, Vashta expresses it well. This is no way to talk about people.

Nevada - you think it's fine.