Cavan family annihilation by a "brilliant Dad"

Olenna that is a very good point. The UK takes 2 weeks - we take 2 days.

Those who choose to bury all together in a knee jerk foggy horrified haze....how many wish later they had more time to decide?

Ireland is one of the places that buries the dead in (what seems like to us non-Irish) indecent haste, which doesn't allow much time for reflection and consideration on whether it might be better to bury the victims separately from the murderer, for example.

If you think this is an exclusively Irish problem, then I'm sure you are consoled in your not actually living in Ireland.

I do, and see it as part of a much broader global feminist issue.

We see the same cognitive dissonance all over Relationships. "He's a great dad though" "No he's not, great dads don't do all the stuff you've just listed".

The media are the ones with the detachment to choose appropriate quotes or else give them appropriate context, not the shocked community trying to come to terms with the horrific event. We can't tell them off for not having mentally adjusted to living next door to a murderer before the reporters come knocking.

I would also be wary of ascribing things to Clodagh. We have no reports of previous domestic violence - the only hints have been about him being stressed at work.

For all we know she would be the first to want them to be buried together.

It may come out that he was a "house devil" or it may not. But speculating that she lived in permanent terror is ascribing clichés to her too. Just as he is being described in clichés.

I think saying"sometimes Ireland really sucks" is childish. These murder suicides happen all over the world, and with a white male "pillar of the community" there is universally this kind of biased reporting.

And it's the families who decide who is buried with who. It's not the media, and it's certainly not the parish priest.

Certainly in previous cases in Ireland, they have been buried separately, or the murderer has been cremated.

The thing is though, it really shouldn't still be a shock by now, should it?

This has been going on for decades. "Oh he seemed like a lovely man".

We must realise by now that murderers are not Jack-The-Ripper, cartoon villain types? That people are multi-faceted and just because they sometimes smile or laugh or play with their children, it doesn't mean they are also not capable of terrible things?

If "we" (and by we I mean collective society) don't realise this, why is that? What can we change to make people aware of the truth?

But apparently that was the wishes of Clodaghs mother, who loved Alan and doesn't want him "demonised".

So it's certainly not just in the media.

Obviously the families are finding it so hard to reconcile his outer face with his inner monster that they're defaulting to the "brilliant Dad" side too.

I read they were all being buried together. Clodagh, the children, and their evil murderer.

I have no words.

And the murders were discovered by the "mother in law"

Even Clodagh Hawe's mother is being defined by her murderer..

I agree about the shock factor, 7Days, but I think we have to wonder who is prepared to answer journalists' questions at such a time - I'm guessing people who were really rather far removed from knowing much about the family at all.

In my neighbourhood there is a "great dad" who has clearly been a bully to his now ex-wife and family. Well, it's clear to me, and it's clear to many of the women in his social circle who have privately spoken about their suspicions of him to one another. However, when these women have tried not to invite him to events or mentioned their suspicions to their husbands, their fears have been dismissed and minimised because he's a "great dad" who helps at the local football club etc. Had this man "suddenly flipped" and become a murderer, all the men in the area would have been shocked and amazed but the unsurprised women, used to having their fears and suspicions belittled, would probably be cautious about deviating from the "great dad" script - especially to a journalist.

I agree with others on this thread that men seem unable to confront the reality and enormity of male violence in our society.

It's the shock, though. The cognitive dissonance. That nice man at no 23, chatted to at school pickup, had a drink with, your kids went to his house to play. To think that someone so normal could do just a thing. Everything seems turned upside down, it unsettles people, locals and news consumers.

I'm not defending the news coverage, which is shocking and minimising. There is a definite bias there, we all know that.

But I think I'm defending the local people who are being quoted, who are shocked and horrified and have journalists on their doorstep.

We know all about house devils, street angels. But you tend to assume most men are decent, especially if they act it, and the whole family keeps up the front.

I don't know really...what can be said. That poor woman and those kids. RIP.

One can only come to the conclusion to stay the hell away from "good" men who are "great dads" and the like.

Maybe bad boys are safer after all. Though probably not.

Spinsterhood is the only safe option.

I wouldn't say anything nice about a murderer except "He seemed nice".

I think it's understandable that a community in a state of shock (who indeed may not yet be convinced that he is the murderer rather than a third party) might react with their kindest thoughts for all of those involved in the tragedy. Even Adam Lanza's family didn't respond with 'yep always knew he was going to be a murderer' (although they certainly didn't say 'he was a brilliant son and great friend' as his MH problems were already known about).

The question is why the media angles its stories to lead with 'brilliant dad murders family' rather than ''much loved and valued teacher' murdered with her children'. It isn't necessary to print all the nice things said about a murderer, the media is highly selective when it wants to be.

Hmm. Didn't think of it that way, Doin - about whether it was 'Clodagh's fault really' so can't say too much.

But I still think it is a lot for relations/friends/acquaintances to take in. It's not going to be a flick of the switch, people have to take it in. What would you say to a journalist if this happened in your area? 'He seemed a good person. He did me a favour once. My kids liked him as a teacher. There was no clue that he was anything other than a decent person with a happy family'. That's what I would say. The trouble is, a happy family, and a family controlled by an abuser look exactly the same to the looker-on.
The media are saying what they are being told by people in the area. And I don't believe anyone local would confide their suspicions - if they even had any - to a journalist on the prowl. Out of respect for those who are left.

I am by no means denying that there is a sexist bias to this. But it's not the only factor at play.

This is of course similar to how mass murderers in the US are portrayed as 'mentally ill loners' (Newtown) if white, vs terrorists (Miami) if not white. The media, aka white men, apparently cannot cope with seeing themselves as murderers and adjust the story accordingly.

The MN thread on Craicnet noted that the mother and grandmother of the victims is referred to as 'the mother-in-law' in many reports, as if she has no purpose in the story except by her relationship to the killer.

Perhaps on the plus side (kind of), this attack is not reported as having happened 'after the marriage broke down', which was the case with the horrendous swimming pool attack - the implication being 'this is what you get for not staying married'.