Cavan family annihilation by a "brilliant Dad"

Well I'm not going to judge her family/mother for what they say right now, or for the burial arrangements. I'm truly astonished they can function at all or even form a sentence. Shock doesn't even begin to cover it.

Just to add, I think it shows how much control he had in his presentation and manipulation that her own family allowed their daughter and grandchildren to be buried with the man who slaughtered them. They also said nice things about them. That is so disturbing. Assuming (and I think it's most likely) that Clodagh had been silently suffering abuse for years, that is the mentality she's coming up against from her own family, friends and people who should be her support. She wouldn't have been believed had she tried to escape him.

That's why I think it's important to emphasise to the public that this was someone who presented so well, normal and nice. That people like that can be evil bastards too and we should be watchful of family members or friends that seem to be trapped.

The shock is that he appeared to be a great dad, husband, provider, law abiding upstanding member of the community.... That is why there are so many headlines and articles trying to make sense of it. The neighbours, colleagues, friends and family members can only describe the man they knew him to be through their interactions with him so of course their descriptions of him will be positive as that is how they viewed him before he murdered his family.

Nobody would have been shocked if he had a history of violence or string of convictions and someone like that wouldn't incite such bafflement and fear. We can avoid getting into relationships with men we KNOW to be violent and dangerous but when someone who appears so normal, genial, friendly, upstanding.....Someone who you'd never imagine as capable of doing such a thing, well that makes people realise that there is a lot more to others than the surface and you never know what may be bubbling underneath. It makes you realise that it could happen to you.

Then it raises questions. Was he violent within the home before? Were there signs that people close to the family could have noticed? Or ignored because he was so 'upstanding'. Was he a psychopath or was he really the nice man he presented who lost his sanity in a psychotic break?

These questions are important to identify so that we can protect families from domestic abusers and recognise and provide intervention for behavioural and mental health issues.

How the media presents parents who murder their children and spouses is important. It needs to be done in a way that doesn't glorify, justify or romanticise the killer because that can encourage copycats. It needs to be judged harshly. But we also have to question how someone who appeared so normal could have done something so evil. That focus is needed so that people understand that 'nice' people can be dangerous abusers too.

I keep thinking about QEI. When faced with [Catholic priest] assholes who wanted to kill her, whose belief system reckoned that they wouldn't go to hell for murder (the main inhibitor of the era). So, she reckoned, she had to impose a pre-death punishment that was going to weed out at least a few of the candidates, on grounds of squeamishness.

In short, we should bring back hung, drawn and quartered for these types of crimes.

Or, at least, not call them great dad's and husbands in tabloid press.

TL:DR - Any "news" source who claims these perps are anything but cold-blooded murders are, IMHO, complicit in future murders

As a survivor of long term abuse, this stinks of it. Clodagh kept herself to herself ... Yes no doubt she had to or he would blow. Her family say how great he is ... Classic getting them onside. He seems to hAve the ownership mindset which in very very extreme cases leads to the abuser killing those around him.
Throughout my journey through the legal system, one of the first questions barristers would ask (and the police before that) was will he charm me? Often they do present as amazing men ... And will do anything to protect that image.

I know, I know it's wrong to judge- and I hope I'm not judging as such - but trying to get my head around it - like the sisters posts (allegedly) rip Alan.

It's like they believe they were all killed in an accident or something, not murdered- in a most violent/painful fashion.

I am appalled they'll be buried together. Disgusted even....can't get my head round whAt her family are thinking

I can't say I think much of Clodagh's mother's comments or burial arrangement decisions, but there's something to be said for not judging someone who's just been through a horrific mass murder bereavement. People aren't necessarily at their most rational when they experience something like that. Our criticism is better directed at the coverage of this massacre. As usual.

we Irish won't speak ill of the dead.

Eh? I can't relate to that at all (and yes, I am Irish).

The last shitty person I knew who died, his funeral (which people went to for his family's sake) had people saying things like he won't be much missed, the family's better off, 6 feet under is the best place for him, etc. No beatification there.

It might have been different in front of a total stranger, though, like if a journalist had come to the door. I can easily imagine lots of "ah he was a grand man" comments to nosy journalists, even if the speaker thought the man in question was a complete bastard and had said so to all the neighbours. It's a roundabout way of keeping outsiders at a distance.

I do wonder if there's an element of that going on in the Cavan reporting.

This is why the archers story line pisses me off so much. They were right I presenting rob as this controlling bastard behind a very plausible and respectable front, but he would have been more likely to nearly kill helen than helen snap and almost kill him...

Probably a mixture of superstition and the belief that you shouldn't talk behind someone's back / when they can't defend themselves.

I don't think that's just an Irish thing though - my family's the same.

I agree with you SenecaFalls.

On a seperate note -
Something that bothers me - we Irish won't speak ill of the dead.
Why not?
If they were sh**ts in life why beatify them in death.

My fear Seneca is that the likelihood of those notes saying "I'm a horrible man who thought I had the right to murder my wife and children because of my massive ego and patriarchy" are vanishingly slim.

What is far more likely is that the note tries to portray him as a victim and gives people who try to blame Clodagh for her own murder more material.

Yes, Lotta, similar beliefs here. I think in our culture (using that in a broad sense as I am American), there is great symbolism attached to someone's last resting place. That is part of it for me anyway.

I think that the contents of notes that he left should be made public. I understand that the family may want privacy, but one of the biggest problems with domestic violence is that we (the societal "we") have treated domestic violence as a family matter for most of history. What happened is not only a crime against Clodagh and her children; it's a crime against society. Keeping the notes private just reinforces notions still prevalent among many that domestic violence is a private matter.

It's horrendous, isn't it Seneca? I'm a devout atheist and have no belief in life after death, but to think that Clodagh and her children had their bodies laid to rest next to the man who murdered them is intensely disturbing. I almost cried about it today.

I posted on the craicnet thread, but did not specifically comment on the fact that they were being buried together. I suppose I just felt that it was inappropriate to comment on that for some reason related to it being not really my business how this grieving family are dealing with such a horrific event. But now I will say that the fact that Clodagh and her children are being buried together with their killer has bothered me so much that I lost sleep over it last night. It just seems to be the final insult, the final erasure. I really don't understand how her family can do it.

The thing with abuse and violence is that for bystanders, there can be a fear of being held culpable - as in 'why didn't you stop it'. Or of having their judgement called into question if they didn't realise that someone was actually an abuser.

I suspect faced with something so utterly horrific, many might just default to the position that they knew nothing because the idea that they might have helped prevent it is too much to consider. ( I'm not suggesting that anyone could have stopped it btw, just that they might think so).

Yes the Craicnet thread is overwhelmingly critical of the murderous Alan Hawes.

DoinItFine
I have to pick you up on the comment you made re the Craicnet thread.
I started it and I don't believe most people are stating that the family should be buried together.
I think it is a thread very like this one that regards Clodagh and the children as the victims and Alan as a murderer.
So many have praised the Linnea Dunne article and rightly so.

I don't know how accurately it's been reported, but she elaborates on it, countess. About how he was the backbone of the family and how he "can't have been in his right mind" and it "wasn't the Alan she knew".

It just seems like such an utter denial of what actually happened - which I totally get because we all do things when grieving that aren't usual or rational - but I just so strongly get the sense that people like Clodagh's mum are really trying to minimise the violence and construct narratives in which he shouldn't be held responsible. I'm really trying not to be political or hold people up to impossible standards here, but...unless I do think we have to square up to the elephant in the room, which is how invested people are in excusing and denying male violence - look at how often it happens on here.

I hope she isn't being strong armed into this policy of forgiveness by the priest who is supporting her. Sorry to drag religion into it, but I do wonder.

It won't have sunk in by the time she said it. I think it's very unfair to judge her by her response at a moment when many bereaved people still haven't emotionally fully taken on board the scale of their loss.

I agree with Selkie - this reminds me uncomfortably of a woman I know who left her abusive husband and went to her parents' house only to be told to turn around and go back home. I'm truly hoping that her mother's forgiveness comes from a place of Christian compassion, but it feels an awful lot like saving face to me.

There is a parallel thread on boards.ie which has lots of men on it, all of whom are as appalled at the media reporting on this case.

Maybe you're reading a different boards.ie thread? I have seen many men on there downplaying his actions, defending him as a good dad and one even claimed that 'more will come out' about Clodagh that will explain everything. Oh and the usual having a go at 'feminism'

I agree with everything you say OP. This is so sickening. It's made me really angry and brought me to the realisation that there is something fundamentally wrong in parts of Irish society.

I'm Irish so I'm perfectly entitled to reach such a conclusion before anyone has a go at me