Trans Understanding Help

For me it helps to think how would I feel if I was born a man? I'd be so confused and upset, I agree it's a very difficult concept to get your head around though!
Also, I guess I feel like it doesn't affect me if someone changes their gender

If transwomen are too afraid to use the men's bathrooms because of the minority of men who might be violent, is the problem with transwomen or men?
If women are too afraid to use the women's bathrooms because of the minority of transwomen (or pretend transwomen) who might be violent, is the problem with transwomen or women?

Seems to me like the buck always stops with women and I am not entirely sure how that is fair.

But you're not negatively impacted by this particular issue are you Mermaid and you don't appear have any sympathy for the women this may have a negative impact on.

Got to go now. Some of that was educational for me, the non-reactionary, prejudice crap I have listened to and will take on board. I come from a place of compassion and empathy and will always stick up for those that are marganalised. Until next time x

I've never seen anyone write anything vile about transwomen on here. People only say that it's not possible to change sex, penises are male, transwomen are transwomen not women. All inalienable facts.

Tarttlet Well said.

I'm negatively impacted by many things. It doesn't mean I can belittle and villify other people, imply that they are a danger and make it so they're too afraid to pee in a public bathroom.

"I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions"
This type of statement is usually not followed with anything that tells us just what the vile things are. What are those horrible things people has written? Is it that transwomen are male?

Racial segregation is completely different. Black people posed no threat to white people on account of their race. Some trans people DO pose a threat based on their trans status.

That's why Davinia, Ada et al are so dangerous - their arguments oppress those they allegedly seek to empower.

Agree Bertrand. Very hard for those of us who have supported equality, with rallies/voting etc, to be told we are bigots and "trans-phobic". It is very easy to silence women by telling them their words are "vile". I'm not buying it. I know I am a kind and fair person. I'm also a victim of male violence who does not want to share female-only space with men. Nor do I want my young daughters to feel unable to call out a man in their female space, because he has decided he "feels" as though he is a woman. We have sex segregated spaces for very good reasons. Why should women pay with their hard won rights, because some men feel they are not safe from some other men? WE are not safe from men.

Transmen were born women. They take it for granted they'll be oppressed. Only said slightly tongue in cheek...

When ever I read "I don't have a problem sharing a loo/bathroom/changing room with a transwoman" on threads like this my brain automatically finishes the sentence with "so no other woman should either"
So if it doesn't negatively impact on you Mermaid you don't think it's a problem?

" I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions"

And this is how it starts. Any questioning of the new orthodoxy is "vile". A brilliant way to put thoughtful liberal people trying to make sense of things onto the back foot and emotionally blackmail them.

For me it's not about transwomen being violent.

It's about the principle of women only spaces. We fought so hard for them.

Mermaid This article links to a number of relevant studies.

Let's be clear here:
I have no fear of nor qualms about the three transgender people I know reasonably well: two born M, one F.
I know them to be decent, gentle, thoughtful, talented people.
I am glad that all three are happier now that they can express what they feel to be their true selves.
I wish I felt it possible to have a genuine conversation with any one of them about why they feel so strongly that they must 'live as' the opposite gender, in one case almost to the point of caricature (short skirts and heels on a cold wet beach? Why, just why? Everyone else was wrapped up in the entire floor stock of Mountain Warehouse).

But if an unknown person starts waving his dick around a female changing room, yep, that gives me concern, and rightly so.

But you're not taking on board all the points, Mermaid. It won't just be trans women that can access female sex segregated spaces as there won't be any protection. And very many women are going to be uncomfortable with that.

Research continues on why people feel uncomfortable in their bodies. Body dysmorphia expresses itself in many ways and for many reasons.

One can be sympathetic to people who have strong desires to be physically different, but since science was mentioned, science has to be objective and can't be swayed by entirely subjective testimony. Trans women say they are the same as women , they are not. Trans people say they are vulnerable, they should undoubtedly be protected, but not in women's spaces.

I do come from a different perspective since many, if not most, sexual assault centers and domestic violence shelters in the US serve women and men, including transgender people.

Sentia - "The ones who are a threat don't come with a warning label, therefore we exclude all of them." That's probably what was said during apartheid and segregation in the American South, albeit in relation to race and not gender.

Incidentally, should transmen not be allowed to use men's bathrooms as men might attack them? I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions.

Because transwomen commit violent crimes against women at the same rate as men

Really Sentia? I've honestly never heard that before, do you have a link to any evidence about that?

misskelly There's arseholes in every community of course, extremists from all walks of life should be stood up to. I'm not saying we pander to people. And we should all take up the issue of male violence together is what I mean, not that feminists are killers, I don't think that.

venusinscorpio I very much agree that people need safe spaces. I read all the time about retreats for women of colour and of certain backgrounds and I think it's a beautiful thing. I'm not saying I have all the answers on this issue, it's tricky, and there would need to be a lot of talking from both communities. But the idea of sharing a public bathroom with a trans woman doesn't bother me at all, we're all just there to pee, so why should I be worried, like a trans woman is inherently threatening, I've never had any reason to think so. I suspect here we will agree to disagree, which is ok with me. As I have previously said, everyone's voice should be heard. But I hadn't heard anyone sticking up for trans women so I wanted to be that voice.

"All people who are victims of sexual assault should have access to sexual assault services."
Of course they should. But women, who have been over the years the people who have fought and campaigned for such services should feel completely confident that there will not be a person with a penis and a beard sitting next to them when they need to access the services. A separate room and door for transwomen- fine. Same door and room? Not fine.

If there needs to be compromises, let's make them, on both sides

Every negotiation involves "a list of things that might be conceded" and "a list of things that will never be conceded".

For me, for example, opening up female safe spaces such as toilets and shelters to people who are biologically male is something I will never compromise on. Because transwomen commit violent crimes against women at the same rate as men (a significantly higher rate than women committing violent crime), and are physically equivalent to men (ie stronger than females) and therefore fulfil the two criteria that cause men to be excluded from female safe spaces. Yes, most transwomen are not a threat, but nor are most men. The ones who are a threat don't come with a warning label, therefore we exclude all of them.

There's a racist element too, the trans women who suffer violence are much more likely to be non-white. And poor and involved in prostitution. So are discriminated against (genuinely) in every area.

If you think women should accept trans women (and other opportunistic men) into certain intimate spaces without complaint, then you are being very dismissive of women's feelings.