Trans Understanding Help

Even the moderate TAs who don't issue rape and death threats still insist that TW are women. It's a pretty mainstream position - it's the stance of the Green Party and the WOMENS equality party. And it's inherently problematic, because if TW are women then all the rest of the madness logically flows.

I would also be interested in finding some transactivists who have reasonable, moderate views and don't advocate violence and/or rape. I'm a bit worried that there aren't any, but surely there must be some??

There is something wrong with saying "trans activists do x" when you mean "trans activist misogynist nutjobs do x and most trans people or those fighting for trans equality would be disgusted by that behaviour."

Can you point me in the direction of some non-misogynistic nutjob transactivists, Vashta?

People are worried about women's privacy, dignity and safety, Vashta. That's the primary reason they are concerned about the move towards gender self-definition, not "less of a focus on women's issues". Sorry if that offends you, but we can't actually discuss it without talking about the reasons we feel unsafe and uncomfortable. You want to sit on the fence, I get that. But it's not possible.

And Karlos, again you've nailed it.

Hear hear Hermione.

Also Tara Hudson was put in a women's prison without at GRC. It was just because they looked feminine

"I come from a place of compassion". unlike you bigots

There's never any compassion for the women who don't want to share intimate space with males, for whatever reason, is there? No thought for women who might not be able to access services they're entitled to.

Hear hear Vashta.

the wishy washy liberal left has a long and dishonourable history of disregarding women and girls in the name of pandering to minorities they deem worthy of their esteem/concern.
The mentality that left teenagers in Rotherham exposed to predatory paedophile rapists is the same mentality that is accepting the trans agenda now
wherever and whenever it happens, there is only one rule - women come last.

There is nothing wrong with questioning whether the move towards self-definition might stop us focusing on 'women's issues' like FGM, reproduction rights etc.

There is nothing wrong with challenging the idea that all women experience a more privileged life than all trans people.

There is nothing wrong with criticising trans people who commit crimes and asking whether a male-bodied sex offender is best placed in a women's prison even if they identify as female.

However... there is something wrong with using insulting terminology to discuss trans people (criticising clothes, hair, voice, using patronising terms such as "special snowflake").

There is something wrong with saying "trans activists do x" when you mean "trans activist misogynist nutjobs do x and most trans people or those fighting for trans equality would be disgusted by that behaviour."

There is something wrong with talking about sex offences every time gender identity is discussed as if the two are inevitably linked.

There's room for calm, rational discussion. I only occasionally see that on MN. I mostly see fear, anger and ignorance - and an echo chamber that stokes those feelings.

I am bored of virtue-signalling and being classed as an unkind bitch.

The truth is that this country's political and media elite are also virtue-signalling like mad. Aren't we progressive? Aren't we modern? Aren't we with the zeitgeist?

And this is leading head-long into a lack of protection for women in vulnerable spaces - not just healthy strong women but children, the sick, the old, the weak, the nervous, the abused, the frightened...anf also the "treatment" of children of extremely young age, potentially leading to damaging drug treatment and life-altering treatment and surgery to remove or alter perfectly healthy body parts.

Quite frankly we should be fucking terrified.

Yes. How nice that she comes from a place of empathy. I come from a place of fear, and I don't want to go back there, put my dd there, or force lesbians there.

Follow through on those comments about 'there's a few arseholes in every population'. Yes there is, and trans are not exempt. Mermaid and Toyshop seem to dismiss those few arseholes as if they don't matter, aren't real. There have been links to studies on here before about how male-to-female trans retain patterns, ie quantity, of male violence (can anyone link them quickly?). How can you honestly think it's a good idea to put the same potential for rape in every safe women-only space? Girls and women forced to strip off in front of, or in the case of lesbians, forced to have sex with men, men with the normal propensity for sex-related violence, or be called names? It doesn't really matter whether that name is 'transphobic' or, as it used to be when I was growing up, 'posh'.

That's before you get onto the existence of sexual predators who will use any excuse, especially this gift of 'I am what I feel like'.

And Mermaid's departure was some of the most spectacular virtue signalling I've ever seen on MN!

YY Bertrand. Isn't it funny how all these types do that.

I don't have any problem with trans people who just want to live their lives in the way that seems best to them. Most trans people aren't transactivists.

The transactivists, however, are vile - many of them extremely aggressive, misogynist and lesbophobic. Take a look here - terfisaslur.com/

I've never seen anyone on MN, no matter how critical they are of the trans agenda, say anything that comes remotely close to the violent invective spewed by transactivists. (For the uninitiated, 'TERF' stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist, i.e. woman who disagrees with transactivist ideology).

I think most people agree generally with live and let live. So I don't care what someone else wears. Unless they are walking around naked on a Saturday afternoon in the high street, it doesn't affect me. I might think what someone wears looks ridiculous, but so what. It is up to them.

The issue comes when one persons rights, interferes with another persons rights. Where I live our public swimming pools are largely old ones with communal changing rooms. I think it is right that I should be able to change without seeing a male body or penis. I am quite happy for the swimming pool to make arrangements for a male who thinks he is a woman, to change elsewhere. I don't want to stop anyone using the pool. But I also have rights.

It's amazing how many discussions you can avoid if you throw accusations of belittling and vilifying then leave..............

Q: Why do we exclude men from women's toilets/changing rooms etc?
A: because of the risk of sexual assault and the fact that most men are physically much stronger than most women, thus a women cannot physically be expected to defend herself.

Anyone disagre with that? No? Ok

Transwomen commit violent sexual assaults at exactly the same rate as men and have the physical strength of men.

So why should they be allowed into women's safe spaces?

Everyone deserves to be safe. We cannot make half the population unsafe in the name of equality.

Mermaid - It doesn't mean I can belittle and villify other people if you do on the off chance come back please can you tell us specifically which posts have belittled or vilified TW? I can't see any but I may have missed something...

For me it boils down to the fact that hiding in the ladies together does nothing.

That demanding women to let you into the ladies because you're scared to be in the mens is bullying.

That as a MTT, you can put on a suit and tie, wipe off the makeup and bingo, everyone will see you as a bloke again, golden ticket out of whatever oppression you had.

That in any other dysmorphic disorder, we try to treat the root cause - I read an account by an anorexic woman, who sat in a support group with some trans, and where all the anorexic people were being coached to change how they saw themselves, the trans were being applauded for their surgical and medical interventions - the dissonance was almost unbearable she said.

That's very true Carol and I wouldn't want my children to see that. I do also worry that it allows men's access into areas where women change / go to the toilet etc. There are a lot of pervs out there !

You can stick up for the marginalised without entering an alternate reality.

Ali I does when they wave a penis in your face in the changing room.

As you are thinking about your position on this, I'd just like to suggest that you do a range of research outside of Mumsnet. There is quite a consensus on here to the extent that people who like me don't agree (and in fact find a lot of the statements disturbingly transphobic) tend to avoid posting. So don't use this forum as your one source of info.

It's because of what I have read outside of mumsnet that I am so angry.

No penises in women only spaces. Full stop. That's it. Non-negotiable.

I get that trans people don't feel comfortable in their biological bodies. However, a man reared as a boy with male privilege can have no concept of what it feels like to be a woman. I understand that they feel "not man". But it's a huge leap to assume that they therefore must be women.

They haven't experienced the horror of the first period, the nightmare of running your life around a monthly bleed. They haven't been shit scared that they are pregnant after teenage experimentation, they haven't been pregnant or felt the awful pain of infertility when your womb won't co-operate.

If they want to get their gonads removed and call themselves she then that's fine if it makes them happy. I will use the appropriate pronoun, be kind to them and want them to be happy. I may even consider sharing female spaces with them if they have transitioned.

However, if they still have their gonads then they can stay out of our spaces and stop trying to impose their male privilege on us. They can stop harassing lesbians and demanding they have sex with their lady dicks. Nope. No.

Feminists have fought long and hard to get where we are and the battle is far from won. We don't need a load of blokes coming along to tell us what feminism is, thanks. We know and it isn't you and your dicks.