Trans Understanding Help

Do you know what, I really take exception to the sweeping generalisation that gender critical discussions here are "ignorant". That's just not true - did you even see the post of mine that appears directly above yours ^^ with some links to moderate trans sites for someone to have a look at?

And as for fear and anger, yes there are both, because women are afraid because their rights are being eroded, and they are angry about it. Telling people to shut up and sit down isn't a very constructive way to deal with that.

There's room for calm, rational discussion. I only occasionally see that on MN. I mostly see fear, anger and ignorance - and an echo chamber that stokes those feelings

Totally agree vashta virtually the only transwomen that get discussed her are extremist transactivists.

For the poster looking for moderate trans voices, Gender Apostates might help. There's also Snowflake Especial. Or search on youtube for Jen Bob, who is super smart and hilarious.

Hope this helps you to understand that the gender critical voices here don't come from a place of bigotry or ignorance. Many of us have spent a long time thinking and talking about these issues, including with trans people.

I was thinking of an example where trans activism and feminism can stand together, and I have to say, that in my opinion, the shared issues are limited. I heard one today on a podcast, where a transwoman was fired because they transitioned. Now, I would absolutely stand behind that person and fight for their right to keep their job as they transitioned, because that's blatant discrimination and I don't want to live in a world where that happens.

But such a large percentage of transactivism seems oblivious to the need to understand how to balance their needs with women's needs for privacy, safety, protection etc, and that's something that I can't ever get on board with.

I'm fortunate enough not to feel that I am in the wrong body, but I am empathetic enough to believe those who say that that is their experience, and I will support them receiving appropriate treatment to resolve that problem.

I'm also fortunate enough not to have been directly affected by rape or serious sexual assault, but I am empathetic enough to believe those who have when they say that being asked to share intimate spaces with men is unacceptable, and I will support that position when I see that hitherto red line being blurred by men who want to muscle in.

I suppose one of the main problems is that women can't discuss issues that impact on them without transpeople muscling in. It's an echo of when you couldn't discuss feminism without someone moaning what about the menz! Now it's what about the transmen/women.

I wish no ill will on anyone but when a minority try and silence, intimidate and act aggressively agianst those they claim to be like or identify as it is a recipe for disaster.

Because people think male violence is inevitable. It's far easier to guilt trip and bully women into accepting trans women into female sex-segregated spaces.

What I'm saying is that why isn't the issue of male dominance and violence as a construct under attack instead of women's rights to associate with each other free from men?

Most murders of transwomen are committed by men. Sometimes as part of the general clusterfuck that is attitudes toward sex workers and how they don't really count as people. Other times its because patriarchal men are punishing other men for daring to not conform to sexist standards of behaviour. These men already think it's ok to harm the inferior sex and cannot cope with the superior class identifying with them.

Much like how racists hate blacks but truly despise whites who take part in behaviours traditionally/stereotypically associated with black culture.

The rate of murder of white "lesbian" MTTs is lower than the rate of murder of the general population. In fact, there is a distinct racial divide between MTTs. "Lesbian" MTTs are predominantly white. I can't think of any black "lesbian" MTTs. Laverne Cox's casting in OITNB is so unconvincing as LC' is obviously gay.

In my previous post, I should have written "Most murders of transwomen occur in South America" instead of "Most murders of transwomen occur in Brazil." My other comments about Brazil are unaffected by this revsion.

"I'd quite like it if trans people could go about their lives without fear of prejudice, or violence and with equal access to the employment, health services, education etc"

Me too.

But I want women to do that too. And I will not support anything which means women have to move over and give up some of their hard won gains in all these areas to transwomen.

I'd quite like it if trans people could go about their lives without fear of prejudice, or violence and with equal access to the employment, health services, education etc.

I've said the same, often.

But trans women aren't women, which means they should be able to be excluded from women only spaces (bathrooms, domestic abusers shelters, feminist groups, lesbian groups, board/scholarship groups etc).

It's not just the gobby, mysoginistic Ada's who are driving the agenda, either. Have you been living under a rock?. Legislation and public policy is being affected! I don't want to see the meaning of 'woman' boiled down to 'anyone who says they are one'. I don't want to be referred to a 'pregnant person' rather than a woman because someone is worried about hurting the feelings of the special snowflakes. I don't want my daughter to be forced to use the change room with a male. I don't want to see children turned into lifelong medical patients for no good reason.

"In the past 8 years, 8 trans people were murdered in the UK. In the same period, more than 800 (non-trans) women were murdered in the UK."

This.

MermaidMartian wrote - "These poor people are just trying to deal with not being abused and murdered on a daily basis"

Yes, worldwide, 1 transwoman or transman is murdered almost every day. The statistical rate for murder of trans people is about 0.69 per day or 1 per 1.45 days. (The total murder count for the world's entire population is about 1,400 per day.)

Most murders of transwomen occur in Brazil. The murder rate for transwomen in Brazil is about 100 per year. The murder rate for (non-trans) women in Brazil is about 4,000 per year.

In the past 8 years, 8 trans people were murdered in the UK. In the same period, more than 800 (non-trans) women were murdered in the UK.

(my source for statistics about murder of transmen and transwomen is: transrespect.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/TvT_TMM_TDoV2016_Map_EN.pdf )

Vashta can you link to some moderate transactivists so I don't lose all hope please? Thanks

That is a beautiful acknowledgement Hermione, thank you for sharing.

What do you advocate with your reasonable moderate views, Vashta? How can we resolve the sex segregated spaces issue?

Oh that's funny Hermione.
Without wishing to make this party political, I do have to say save us from the wet lefties.no-one has done more damage to this country with the possible exception of Nigel Farage. give me Teresa any day.

I'd also add myself to the list of transactivists who have reasonable, moderate views and don't advocate violence and/or rape although I do less campaigning on trans issues at the moment (due to changes in work/family commitments not due to a change in beliefs).

Yes, like the Green Party who asked to hear from women and this happened and we're supposed to think this is progress?

Loads of individuals Maud who I can't easily name because they're friends, but also Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence don't advocate violence or anything.
And I'm not offended Venus, I'm just disagreeing with some of the things I've read here, that's all. Privacy, dignity and safety should be basic human rights, we don't disagree there.

karlos the WEP have been such a disappointment. Their leader did a webchat here and confirmed that "woman" is anyone who "identifies" as such

but you have to laugh. She's going on right now about how all senior appointees in the labour party are male and how awful this is. But presumably if they all starting wanking on about how they self-identify as women it would magically be fine.
Why can't these people see how stupid they are? Probably because they are stupid, I guess.

I'm listening to Any Questions right now. I heard the leader of the Women's Equality Party on it, and I did think she was full of utter ordure.
Always comforting to be reassured that one's bullshit detection system is still in working order