Trans Understanding Help

I don't think lumpy was advocating trans women invading women's spaces necessarily.

No she didn't! By "we" educating men to be nice to men in dresses I meant society in general. Instead they are handing over our right to privacy. They just accept that trans women will be in danger so usher them into the ladies instead of thinking "bloody hell that's not on, better do something about male violence then." It's that casual acceptance that men are violent that angers me so much.

Sorry if I didn't explain myself well.

Thank you IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat

I hold up the Huffington Post as a particularly guilty party in this. FWIW I agree with the Huff post on quite a lot, but the constant TA stance has put me right off it.

I'm a lefty, I'm socially liberal, I'm live and let live. I recognise oppression when I see it. I am also a feminist who knows that women (ALL women - all ages, all races, all abilities, all levels of fitness) are at risk of violence from men. This is why we have sex-segregation.

I'm not too happy about "Has to have lived as "woman" two years" either, if that doesn't include having his penis surgically removed.

Sorry, but there's a reason we used to separate the sexes in prison. And just because a male has worn a dress for two years doesn't mean he's not capable of raping a woman in prison.
Or, at the very least, if I am very generous and assume that no transwoman would ever commit rape (which is of course nonsensical) making women uncomfortable in the showers. There's many occasions where it is expected that women share showers with other women, and while I am already a bit uncomfortable with that, and don't think anyone should be forced to do it, it is my understanding it is the case in prison.

No woman should ever be forced to see a penis. Period.

It is sad that transwomen fear that men will harm them, but they're in the same boat as effeminate gay men there. The problem is male violence, and that needs to be solved.

Oh no I am sorry. Tired and just a bit mad about it all I think

Erk sorry

I don't think lumpy was advocating trans women invading women's spaces necessarily.

I don't think lumpy was advocating trans women invading women's spaces necessarily.

lumpy
Shouldn't we be educating boys to be nice to boys in dresses? Seriously, why can't we do that? Instead of accepting and expecting male violence.

Male violence is the reality we are dealing with. Shouldn't we be dealing with that. Transwomen are men. Shouldn't they be speaking out about male violence rather than trying to invade women's spaces?

"Shouldn't we be educating boys to be nice to boys in dresses? Seriously, why can't we do that? Instead of accepting and expecting male violence"

Yep. Doing that. Alongside educating boys to be nice to girls in dresses.

Not the point.

"Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct. It's called transGENDER not transSEX."

Exactly little. And facilities and sports are segregated by sex, not gender identity. I don't have a gender identity. I'm still a woman and entitled to use women's facilities

Shouldn't we be educating boys to be nice to boys in dresses? Seriously, why can't we do that? Instead of accepting and expecting male violence.

YY Flora. So much misrepresentation and ignorance when people just parrot things unthinkingly.

The transwomen murdered by men are generally poor homosexual POC living in highly conservative communities, often in prostitution, not white middle aged middle class "lesbians".

Yes littleprincesssara, many tranaswomen are murdered by men. Maybe you should look into that.

"Why on earth should a transwoman not be allowed access to rape counselling? Even (cis) men can be raped.

I'd hope anyone who was raped would be allowed access to proper care"

Of course. But proper care for women involves not, at a time of huge vulnerability, having to share spaces with someone with a penis.

I'd like trans specific or unisex facilities to be made available in addition to sex segregated facilities.

Yes, gender is a social construct. So "gender" is irrelevant in sex segregated facilities. They are about biological sex.

Curious what MN thinks about people who are biologically intersex.

Or transwomen who look 100% female/feminine and do not have a penis, and would be at great risk of violence or even murder of forced to use exclusively male spaces.

Or the many masculine looking/butch biologically women who get abused and beaten up and thrown out of ladies look because society deems them not sufficiently female (despite being born with a vagina and an xx chromosome) to use women-only spaces.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct. It's called transGENDER not transSEX.

It's not feminists killing all the trans women, is it?

No one is saying that trans women should not have access to rape counselling. Just like no one is saying that men should not. But separate facilities are appropriate here. It's important that women feel safe and comfortable to do this. It's narcissistic in the extreme to use this as an excuse for validation.

I don't suppose anyone cares that one of the main causes of death for transwomen is murder?

Why on earth should a transwoman not be allowed access to rape counselling? Even (cis) men can be raped.

I'd hope anyone who was raped would be allowed access to proper care.

Trans women are a subset of men, not women. Plus if anyone can self define other men are likely to abuse this.

Last message then I really am off.

I'd say the majority of women are not in favour of intact biological males in female sex segregated spaces

We are talking about transwomen. I know some are pre op and some may never have the op. But we are talking about transwomen not men.

I challenged your attempt to claim that it was only women on mumsnet who would have a problem with it

At no point did I say only mumsnet poster have an issue. Just that like minds tend to congregate together and I did myself state that many women on mumsnet seem to have this view.

And given that you didn't see Brexit coming, forgive me if I don't think you're particularly up to the minute on what the general population think

Fair point I guess, but an absolute shit load of people, the markets and the exit polls didn't see it coming so I'm not too embarrassed about that one.

Sorry that was ForeverYazoonique. Brilliant post

I never said anything different. I'd say the majority of women are not in favour of intact biological males in female sex segregated spaces. I challenged your attempt to claim that it was only women on mumsnet who would have a problem with it. And given that you didn't see Brexit coming, forgive me if I don't think you're particularly up to the minute on what the general population think.