French burkini ban rage

I agree with you framey that there are huge problems across the middle east in particular for women from poorer social economic backgrounds. However from what I have picked up from reading the writings of Muslim feminists and speaking to muslim women in general modest dressing is the least of their worries. That can be easily solved by giving women real choice about how they dress. Things like the guardianship laws in Saudi are what give women a really hard time. The legal systems being unfair in particular with regards to family law is another problem.

However changes are happening albeit very slowly. Saudi women recently got the right to vote and run for political office in the recent election which was the 3rd election in the nation's history. There are also alot more educational opportunities open to females in the middle east now though the problem is that it doesnt always lead to job opportunities being made available particularly in Saudi.

It doesn't help that the whole region is unstable for different reasons so that the advancement of women's rights are not given the priority they should be. Any type of dissent is treated as being dangerous. I saw a documentary on Lebanon where people were detained because of protests about problems with rubbish collection in Beirut.

The pictures of this are shocking. This woman was lying on the beach minding her own business when armed officers surrounded her and forced her to remove her clothes. I cannot for the life of me get my head around that.

Needabreak now, thanks for that reply it's helped me clarify it in my head.
I have been getting angry that there's so much media attention about this when there's millions of women going through an utterly shit time in the name of modesty, almost like an apartheid aimed at women and that's often just ignored by the media.
But you're right that France couldn't care less about that and it's a separate issue, I just keep thinking about the women who can't get medical treatment without the permission of their male guardians and that makes me more angry than this French thing, but it's not an either or problem.

Of course the French people are traumatised and hurting because of the terror attacks. But the government shouldn't be using people's fear to play the nation off each other in order to win popularity. Tough rhetoric on protecting the nations morals and values is a sure vote winner when the economy is crap and the country is broke. It's far easier to deliver a nationwide burkini ban as sarkozy is promising than to talk about providing jobs.

Framey I agree with you about imposing modesty on women can be harmful if it's too the extent that opportunities, services, rights etc are taken away. However this ban is nothing to do with that. France does not care about the plight of Middle Eastern women. Just last year they signed a 13 billion dollar contract to supply Saudi Arabia with arms which strengthens the regime further. If I was a women's rights activist there I would find this ban hilarious. There are much more serious problems that women face in the middle east then whether or not they can wear a bikini on the beach.

This is about exclusion and revenge. Punishing women for the actions of men. It's funny that in all these bans not once have they mentioned traditional middle eastern male dress (thobe) nor have they mentioned the beard. Probably because it would impact their business deals if rich Arab Sheikhs couldn't swan around freely in European capitals. Remember a while back a French beach town protested because the French authorities were willing to learn install a lift and also limit access to their local beach because the king of Saudi was vacationing there. Or something to that effect. Such a discrepancy in how they deal with Muslim men and women.

I also disagree with the ban but I feel it wouldn't be right to complain about France while ignoring the harm that imposed modesty does to women and girls in the Middle East. When it's not ok to go to the doctors in case your modesty is compromised and your health and wellbeing are damaged due to the fact that modesty trumps everything else then it's worth a mention in all this.

had those 4 men been any other than police officers that would have been sexual assault

That they are police officers makes a difference in how French law will treat their behaviour, it does not change what it is.

It is interesting, how you can see from the police's behaviour, whom they respect and like.

Countries that use the Nordic Model approach to prostitution have problems with policemen not disciplining johns enough, offering to send the official letters to another address so wifey will not notice, etc. No doubt that is also the problem in France.

And now look how they treat women they can accuse of breaking the law on even the most flimsy of grounds. She's not even wearing a burkini.
It is all revenge for the deeds of Muslim men - or perhaps, for the deeds of men who weren't all that pious, after all, and just wanted to be violent.

Because they don't consider women their own people, they see them as property. How secular and enlightened!

this is why im bloody grateful to be british and why i feel desperately sorry for the french muslim.

yes need, a depressingly not insignificant minority of muslim men would say 'she should not have been on the beach anyway'. the type that also when we complain of being the overwhelming targets of islamophobia say 'stay in the house so'.

had those 4 men been any other than police officers that would have been sexual assault and with their being armed with guns she probably also feared being shot.

I've thought about this a few days ago, really REALLY want to organise a group to fly to Nice, then take a dip in the sea in nuns outfits.

I just need money and a babysitter.

Would be happy to coordinate and manage press though!

Seriously.

TheSparrowhawk, no I don't necessarily think it's reasonable for a piece of clothing to be banned. But there are plenty of council rules here that I don't think are reasonable and that doesn't give me the right to disobey them. I do have the right to write to the council and challenge the rules. But that is very different from breaking them.

Sorry for the typos. I hope it still makes sense.

They think they are pissing off Muslim men but the extremist, radical muslims have less sympathy for the woman then the islamphobes. Their first thought would be like the poster above why was she on the beach in the first place and not at home/covered up like a good Muslim woman? Burkini would be regarded as immodest as a bikini to the radical Muslims of people. Also where was the man forcing her to cover up? She seemed to be enjoying a snooze on the beach on her own before she was rudely awakened by some men asking her to take her top off.

Do you think it's reasonable for a piece of clothing to be banned Hockeydude?

The woman wasn't wearing burkini. She was wearing a tunic, leggings and a turban not even a full hijab. What laws was she breaking? Maybe the police and other idiots need to educate themselves on what a burkini actually is?

The burkini is banned by the council (or equivalent). Do you go around doing things banned by your local council and expect to get away with it?

"So do you believe that cultural and social expectations play absolutely no part in how someone behaves Lass?"

Blimey. I've just said exactly the same thing to Lass,mbut rather more inelegantly and rather less politely on another thread!

So do you believe that cultural and social expectations play absolutely no part in how someone behaves Lass?

I'm surprised you agree Lass. Surely the women should just stop being doormats and choose not to wear them?

No because unlike the vast majority of posters on here I would imagine many of them have not had the advantages of education and other freedoms and rights women enjoy in the culture of secular, liberal, Western democracies.

If women who have had those advantages but still choose to behave like 1950s housewives that is of course their choice.

Ah. Thanks for the explanation Sparrowhawks and apologies.

" " might help next time....

A Burkina doesn't look much different from a rash top and sun hat really. I agree this is goading Muslims by picking on the women, unnecessarily.

Btw, does anyone remember seeing pictures of Nigella Lawson wearing a Burkini in Miami a few years ago?

vestal what would you suggest that the police do with my Muslim female friends who live alone, entirely independent of any males and have their own professional career but still choose to cover up (generally with full length Lycra and hood - much like a 'burkini' but without the skirt)? Are they going to call their Dads in a totally different city and ask them to tell them off?!
Not all women are pressured into dressing in this way.

I also think the terms 'Burka' and 'Burkini' are getting jumbled - not necessarily on this thread but in the general debate. A burka completely covers the face as well as hair and body, if I'm honest I'm not keen on them and can see why the French authorities aren't either - mainly because it's very odd to have a conversation with someone where you can't even see their eyes and you have no idea what they look like / who they are / if you are seeing the same person again the next day. I don't actually know anyone who wears one (even having lived in a Muslim country 2.5 years until recently).

The 'burkini' is just a Lycra bodysuit with a hood and a skirt. Used for swimming and pretty tight fitting, leaves the face totally exposed and almost certainly would be considered too revealing by women who wear a burka. Most of my friends overseas wore a Lycra rash vest and trousers - as did I because the sun was so strong I couldn't be bothered with getting out every half an hour or so to reapply sunscreen. Some of the more conservative ones wore a thin Lycra hood or swimming hat. Plenty of people both male and female swam in their normal clothes. Most of the Muslim men I know would wear a t-shirt and long shorts so less than the ladies but more than most western men.

Loads of people put their kids in sun suit type things to swim - at what age is a girl somehow banned from wearing one and made to expose her body to the sun / stinging creatures in the water etc.
It's only in the last half century that the culture in the west has been to get nearly naked on beaches and when the sun comes out anyway, it's hardly an essential part of being French (or British). Quite different to having a full face covering which I can't think of having ever been a standard in western society (willing to be corrected on this though, I haven't done any real research!).

I just think anybody forcing any women to remove her clothing is unutterably wrong on any level. Either in public or by returning her home.

Nanna, it's not my view that Muslim women are doormats. Lass has expressed the view on many other threads, at tedious length, that women who feel under pressure from cultural expectations should just stop being doormats. So I was surprised that she believes men should be tackled about burqas.

Sparrowhawk

"Doormats"? That's an appalling statement wholly lacking in any empathy, compassion, cultural awareness or in fact basic intelligence.

Feel very lucky that you were born in a place and time where you have such freedom, physically, psychologically and emotionally.

I'm confused-are wet suits on beaches going to be allowed? Looks pretty burka esque to me