Deprogramming

Yup, and they're called Hero don't cha know.

On that note noble check out these cleaning products for men

Apparently they are coming to Sainsbury's.

There's a girl in my DS's class whose dad does all the school pick-ups, and who organises her birthday parties. I've just realised that I've always assumed he's a single dad, something has happened to the mother (I don't go to the parties, that's DH's job so I don't know if there is a mum). I've also thought 'good on him' for organising birthday parties for his DD.

WTF.

scallop that's so true, I only really thought about it the other day when I sat on a beach for a few hours. If someone had asked me to describe the women I could, not so much the men. I wasn't criticizing or even comparing but I was clocking the women, what they were wearing, body shape etc, the men were also clocking the women. It was hard to see my 11 year old draw the male gaze too, she looks older than she is and is moving into the "fair game" age.

Thank you so much for this thread. It absolutely sums up the shit I am struggling with at the moment.

And of course, it's actually more practical than doing/not doing things, isn't it? If we say "well, we just won't mind abut this stuff" aren't we back to saying that the men have it right, and we don't? Like the earlier thing about being in touch with DH's family - yes, I could leave it. But then my only child with no cousins on my side of the family and a few aging relatives on the other side of the world would have no family whatsoever apart from his parents. Not being in touch has ramifications far,,far beyond what they were when DH was single.

And yes, I struggle with the default he, and with thanking DH for doing stuff (I can feel him expect it!!) and asking him to do anything.mhe hasn't been well for a couple of years plus had a horrendous job, so I took the lion's share of housework and childcare. Now that things are better, I think both of us have no idea what 50/50 really looks like. It's taking a long time.

People pleasing is a real problem. I have stuffed up major, major life choices because I thought what other people want is more important than what I want. As well as the small stuff; like an earlier poster I have a major paper to write while on holiday. But who is doing most of the childcare?...

It's good to know I am not alone.

I find I subconsciously clock what women wear and how they look all the time. I don't do this with men. They can be scruffy, smart, fat, thin, tall, short, bald and it doesn't really register (unless there is something unusual about their appearance like they are wearing a mankini ). I only noticed this recently - after I'd become more involved with feminism.

Some of it I suspect is because I'm a woman and I'm comparing other women to myself. Some of it is undoubtedly around no matter who a woman is and what they do, society has expectations as their appearances. I've taken that message on board loud and clear. The fact I feel the need to compare myself to other women is probably partly tied up in this too rather than just a natural competitiveness/comparison.

And I feel I certainly used to have a really positive body image. Weight, diet etc was never mentioned when I was growing up. I wasn't overweight. I was very sporty and pretty muscular at my peak. But definitely in the last 15 years all this has changed. I've felt ground down.

I suspect as well I passed the "patriarchal fuckability test" (thanks Stewie) when I was younger so had no need to doubt my appearance. Now...not so much!

Oh and daughters!!! Sorry, it's early!!

*not a real reflection! Freudian slip!

Just place marking as this is fascinating.

I have a Dad who is very progressive in lots of ways, but who is quite set in gender roles and gets uncomfortable when they're messed with. He was brought up In a very traditional Jewish household and men were very much pandered to.

My Mum is considerably (decade plus) younger than him and especially in the last 20 years has worked really hard to challenge some of his ideas (has made him into a bit of a domestic wizard and made us all do our own washing and stuff) and he even was a STAHD for a while when I was 10-15ish after he was medically retired and she went back to work and forged herself a good career.

However some things he still sees very much as "his" thing... He does all the driving for instance and doesn't take kindly to being driven around by his wife or daughters, he won't iron... Sees that as woman's work, and during my two horrific HG pregnancies where I was hospitalised often, has made comments to Mr. Fell about how horrible it is for him that he's "doing everything" or "sorting out his own dinner" etc. These are a real reflection of his general attitudes but show an underlying sexism that is obviously seriously ingrained. And annoying!! Luckily he is the only male in the family by some margin and has a wife, daughter, granddaughter and nieces who continue to challenge his bullshit.

I also resent how women sometimes police each other in terms of what's acceptable behaviour. I went for a job interview this week and a friend said to me, don't show too much cleavage. ( I'm quite busty ). I didn't say anything but thought WTF? Like I was going to turn up looking like Bet Lynch!

I'm also pretty untidy and sometimes justify it to myself by deciding it's a feminist act of rebellion!! 😀

Great thread! I was basically brought up to believe that men were more important than women. My mum was v subservient and my dad treated her like a servant. I was so scared of ending up like her I've never got married or had kids. I'm ok with that but I still manage to get myself into relationships where I put the man's needs before my own.

I'm also quite feminine which I enjoy, I like clothes, make up etc but wonder if that is just because women are so valued by how they look that you have to play the game? I wouldn't have the confidence to not wear make up and dress down as I feel there would be negative consequences. Like not shaving body hair for example.

Quite right. I wasn't thinking.

Of course, I could say "fuck off out of my cupboards you crazy dirt obsessed old bag"

Oooh, wouldn't you love to?!

Well, I for one would hope you don't. "Old bag" is an ageist, as well as a sexist, slur.

Mine are really petty. I am normal weight and always want to be slimmer. Do I shave my legs because I truly think it necessary or have I been brainwashed? I sometimes wonder if my eyebrows need attention. They are perfectly good as eyebrows go, but still not neatly arched... I would never admit to any of these in rl.

Discussing it is a step to changing it.

Chalk me up as another who has trouble with default he.

Jumping into the middle of an ongoing conversation but can I mention body hair. My 11 year old asked me to shave her 'tother day. We have talked about this A Lot, she was happy with her body and had a thousand quips until they wore her down. I just shaved my kid's armpits just because she is female. Anyway, I didn't pick up the card buying crap for dh's family but despite caring for my fil when he died at home I am Judged for this, my greatest crime.

Place marking for later :)

Ah OK. A more assertive version of my sentence. I could do with that sort of translation in RL!

That's what I meant Sparrow. Just didn't express it well.