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Original poster

Deprogramming

292 replies

TheSparrowhawk · 24/08/2016 08:27

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

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pigsknickers · 26/08/2016 16:38

Thanks for replies. I got a bit upset writing that so it's good to know I'm not alone - although obviously it's crap that it's a "normal" part of the female experience...

BertrandRussell · 26/08/2016 16:35

It just seems to me that anyone who reads #manwhohasitall for a week has no excuse to say they don't understand everyday sexism!

Lessthanaballpark · 26/08/2016 16:33

Pigsknickers your post resonates with me so much.

I remember once this guy I was in love with took me back to his place for lunch. It was obvious he expected a quickie. He had porn playing in the background and I told myself I should feel complimented that he wanted to have sex with me.

Ugh ugh ugh! If only I had Mumsnet FWR then...

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 16:31

When it comes to rape, murder etc most men can legitimately think 'but I'm not like that' but when it comes to everyday sexism IMO there is not a single man alive who isn't complicit.

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maamalady · 26/08/2016 16:28

I think a lot of men probably also think "but I'm not like that" and don't think about what their silence means (basically, that they approve of the status quo).

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 16:25

You are most definitely not alone in that one pigsknickers. Thank you for sharing your experiences Flowers

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pigsknickers · 26/08/2016 16:24

Woo that was long, sorry!

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 16:23

Yes exactly Bertrand - it's the complete denial or the disgusted bafflement that really winds me up because I think the reason they don't respond saying 'what can I do to help' is because they see any suggestion that the world is any different than how they perceive it to be as a personal attack, made worse by the fact that the person challenging them is a woman, someone whose viewpoint can never be trusted.

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pigsknickers · 26/08/2016 16:23

Bit late to the thread as I've been working up the courage to post for the past few days...
In recent years it's been dawning on me how pathetically grateful I was in my teens/early twenties for male sexual attention, whether I wanted it from that particular man, and how often I gave in to sexual advances because I felt like it was expected, and would make me popular, or something. And how much I would pretend to be really enjoying sexual experiences that were frankly a bit shit, and I was probably a bit ambivalent about having in the first place, in order to make men feel good about themselves and like me more. Shit, i feel quite sick thinking about it now. I was at university during peak "lads' mags" era and wondered if this was part of it - that my male peers were busy wanking over these airbrushed, unrealistic female images that we were totally surrounded by (hell, my female flatmates and I even used to read them ourselves! That's how cool we were!), and yet they also wanted to have sex with me - so I should feel flattered at the favourable comparison. Or something. Yuck.
This reared its head in a major way last year when I'd completely gone off sex post-dc1 but found myself accommodating dp's desires. Then I suddenly went wtf - this is my life partner; I don't have to fake enjoyment in order to make him happy!! But I realised how much I was conditioned to do it, even so many years later. (When we talked about it he was horrified and upset that I might feel the need to do that btw, he's definitely not the problem).
But yeah, pretty grim really. I so wish I could give my twenty year old self a good talking to about consent and body autonomy, and do something to boost her self esteem.

maamalady · 26/08/2016 16:13

Gaslighting. Yes, it really is, isn't it :(

BertrandRussell · 26/08/2016 16:11

"For me, the way in which men are so blithely oblivious to the things women face can be really...disappointing "

What I find equally disappointing- and utterly baffling- is why, when those things are pointed out to them, they don't say "Bloody hell, that's appalling! I'm so sorry- what can I do to make sure it doesn't happen again?"

BMacklin · 26/08/2016 16:10

Yes yes yes at Boldlygoingsomewhere

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 16:09

I have had so many men tell me outright how I feel, what I think and what I should believe. And they feel no discomfort with doing that - they just state with authority that 'this is the way things are.' The arrogance is astounding. And if I've ever pointed out that actually I also think things that might be a bit different to what they think, given that I have my own mind, life, etc, they act like I've told them something truly disturbing - the reaction is quite baffling.

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sentia · 26/08/2016 16:05

You're right Sparrow, it is gaslighting. I've never noticed that before.

sentia · 26/08/2016 16:03

It would help enormously if the half of the population with the power would actually listen to the other half of the population, without brushing their experiences of discrimination off as "paranoia" or "an isolated case" or "it happens to men too you know".

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 15:58

Plus, because men have been trained to see their viewpoint as The Valid Viewpoint and women are trained to submit to what men think, men's obliviousness to sexism can lead to a sort of gaslighting situation where women are told that what they see and experience and feel simply isn't real - it's a total headfuck.

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Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 15:54

I don't think that's off topic at all giraffe. For me, the way in which men are so blithely oblivious to the things women face can be really...disappointing - challenging sexism can seem such an impossible task when half of the population, the half that tends to have more freedom, power and money, couldn't be bothered even noticing it.

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maamalady · 26/08/2016 15:43

Cleaning products for men is utterly depressing.

I think my house is fairly evenly split for housework - I'm a SAHM while DH works, so I can keep on top of laundry and tidying in the day. We share cooking and hoovering. Mind you, I don't think DH has ever cleaned the bathroom without being asked.

I realised how much I expect all things to be described as male the other day, as I was surprised at DD1 (aged two) describing everything as female. I suppose this is because she spends her days with her mother, sister, and our cat (also female), so hears female pronouns more. Except on telly.

A PP said So although I feel supported by him, and I know he's a great role model for the DCs - still sometimes I'll see something on tv that's sexist and I know it's passed him by because it just doesn't register. So he noticed sexism if it's blatantly obvious or if I point it out- but the million subtle ways women are undermined are not seen.
I feel much the same - DH is a feminist and an excellent father, but sometimes I will notice poor treatment of women and he will be totally unaware.

On social media I see a lot of pro-feminist articles, often about how aware a dad is of ingrained social gender inequalities and his combatting of them. I think it's both interesting and depressing that these often begin with "as a father of daughters I think X ". Are even sympathetic men so completely oblivious to the way their mothers, wives, sisters and friends are treated? Did they not notice or just not care?

Sorry, wavering off topic a bit there.

SenecaFalls · 26/08/2016 15:22

Excellent post, sentia.

sentia · 26/08/2016 15:07

It makes me very cross when marketeers deliberately segment the market by male/female. Ok, so it might have the effect of increasing sales by convincing people that you have artificially doubled the market, but is it worth the social cost of further embedding limiting concepts of gender norms into everyone's idea of what it means to be a person? This is exactly the same kind of bullshit that afflicts the toy market.

SenecaFalls · 26/08/2016 14:34

"Covers every cleaning emergency, from your bedroom to the garage."

Your bedroom? WTF?

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 26/08/2016 14:30

Not read the whole thread yet.

Dd noticed really early on that every character in her books was make. I try to re gender lots of the characters so that there's a decent mix of female and male characters. The default does seem to be male in so many books, TV shows and films. Trying to do the same for ds.

When I got a new job I really pushed for more pay (got it too). I think men (on average) feel much more comfortable asking for pay rises than women so I pushed myself out of my comfort zone.

On the whole dh wasn't as organised when the kids were small because I got more practice due to mat leave.
When he took the kids out I would leave him to it to organise things. Didn't step in to "rescue" him. He forgot nappies for the baby but he managed (another parent helped).

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 14:22

All of men's actions, up to an including murder, can be heroic.

Women's actions are insignificant, pointless, silly, slutty, not slutty enough, etc etc etc

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Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 26/08/2016 14:21

Of course you weren't being heroic Lumpy! Don't be silly! Depending on the how much it suits men, you were either doing absolutely nothing or you were fulfilling your womanly duty.

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LumpySpacedPrincess · 26/08/2016 14:18

Indeed, and the scent is manly. The manly man who invented them said he was inspired to as the only products on the shelf were for women, with girl scent like, um, lemon. Poor men have been excluded from cleaning for all these years, we've been hogging all the good stuff and making it girly, yuk!

I must admit I didn't realise I was being heroic when I was cleaning the sink.