Deprogramming

There is also the issue of headspace.

My DH is doing more and more as he gets better in himself. The responsibility for what happens, however, or simply the recognition of what needs to be done, however, is still mine. Of course, there are the obvious things like housework, cooking, clothing etc. But there is other stuff. Don't want your 4yo to watch TV all day? Thinking of stuff for him to do doesn't happen two minutes before he gets bored. Homework due? Friends birthdays? Or even just the look, I can tell he isn't happy about something, and I know he likes to talk about this stuff after he's in bed with the lights out. So someone needs to remember to bring it up with him at that point.

Headspace. And I have so much in there that sometimes it's not that I don't have time for my career, but I very honestly just don't have headspace. But of course that's seen as me just being lazy, or preferring to parent, as I should as a woman.

Ohhh yes yes evilgiraffe that. We should never make people sad.

Unless we join a web community where we can express our deep seated hatred of women who use the title MS in the strongest possible terms because they are bitches who deserve to die.

I am a bit drunk but I think the point is valid.

Speaking of putting other's needs above your own... I was horrified a few months ago to find myself saying to DD1 (not yet two at the time) that she shouldn't do whatever it was she was doing "because it will make mummy and daddy sad". And followed up sotto voce to DH "...and of course as a female you are responsible for how other people feel". Arrrgh! Obviously it is important to consider how other people feel, but I suspect it's not the ideal way to teach her to behave. Not for small transgressions, anyway.

Thankyou Bitof. Yes I'm slowly working on my own "re-programming" now that my youngest has started school and the fog of continual childcare is lifting a bit. These threads are really helpful to me and it's so interesting to hear other people's perspectives on their own circumstances and the choices they have made as women.

Well the thread is about Deprogramming. Have you been programmed to put the needs of others above your needs?

You need to make decisions about a job based on what is best for your long term happiness. Others in the family may be put out for a short while but that is only fair.

Bitof - well exactly. Even though we've had quite distinct roles it's been ok because there was never any question that any money wasn't "our" money. Also we do each have mutual respect for what the other does. I could not have been SAHM to a man who was financially- controlling or who I felt didn't value me in this role.

Like you, I've never really been someone whose self-worth is determined by how much money they make (or don't make, in my case)! I am looking to going back to work, but find that I swing between feeling that this is something I want for myself, as opposed to something that I should want. DH not especially keen, I have to say, but I think he can be worked on.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to derail this thread with my own issues. Except to say that It can be hard to disentangle yourself from societal and / or gender-based expectations. It's a bit like the guilt that comes with being a Catholic - you can rationalise yourself out of it, but it's still lurking there somewhere nevertheless!

Not sure I agree with this myself but...Madinche - does it matter if he doesn't understand as long as he is supportive and you are a team. Do you understand the details of his job, the stresses he is under?

As long as you are both happy.....

The next issue is do you want to return to work or just feel you should?

Totally agree with all the points made here.

My DH was/is "programmed" into the belief that, as a man, you work hard to financially provide for your family and anything else (eg help round the house) is a bonus Not an easy one to "deprogram".

It's a double- edged sword really, because while it's given me the freedom to be with the kids and not have to worry about money, I'm very aware that as his earning power has increased, the "point" of me returning to work has decreased. This is obviously exacerbated by the fact that having 4 DC with roughly 2 year gaps between them has effectively meant that I was pregnant / with pre-school DC / breastfeeding for effectively 10 years. Obviously this has huge ramifications on my employability and pay - to the point where it can almost seem like a selfish decision to return to work when I weigh this up against the impact on the family as a whole and the fact that the extra money would be meaningless.

I don't feel resentful towards DH because fortunately, he's not detached in terms of his relationships with me or the kids. But, Spartowhawk is right - he has no clue whatsoever as to the day-to-day care of the DC and all that's involved there. I feel guilty saying it, but, while its lovely when he's home, my life is generally easier when he's on business trips - (less laundry and pasta will do for the kids)

The pay gap impacts on working women negatively after they have kids.

Well I work 4 days a week and so my pay has been impacted negatively. But, but, but I love it. I love being able to work and do stay at home stuff. Part time work is 'bad' for career progression but bloody brilliant as a life style choice.

We are still fighting on 'their' terms - who ever they are.
Paid work is good.
The more you are paid the better you are.
Men get paid more so they are better and happier.

Well a great big hell no to that.

I hope my DS want to stay at home, want to work part time, want to have a quality of life. I will not be judged on how much money I make. I will not assume someone is a success based on their pay.

Finding this a fascinating thread- thank you all.

Sparrow on the SAHP/WOHP split, I agree it may be problematic to split roles so dramatically. The advantage I suppose is that the WOHP has freedoms to pursue their career without restrictions, which reaps rewards in terms of career ambitions and financially (certainly beneficial to the WOHP- arguably beneficial to the family unit). DH and I have a very even SAH/WOH split (he does 4 days, I compress my hours into 4 days) which is fabulous in terms of both of us having financial independence, both have interesting careers, both being able to run the household. But it does have a cost in that work trips away/unusual work requests/getting home late can be a real headache to juggle and we both have to decline some opportunities. It's limiting both our careers to an extent- though preferable to one of us not having a career at all (and the other not seeing a great deal of the DC).

DH is definitely not guilty of that - unless he's away for work (not all that often) he always does breakfast in the morning, family teatime, bath and bed in the evening. And night wakings with both children.

I think fathers who show little interest in their children would do so whether or not the mother works, to be honest.

I think that is largely a product of the pay gap. Even when I was earning a decent salary, it was less than half of what DH earns - and only just matching what he earned as a new graduate. I've never been career minded, but even if I was I would have been hard pushed to match DH in earnings. It makes sense that if only one of us is working, it's the one who earns the most and has the greatest likelihood of a pay rise. It's depressing, though.

Yes totally agree.

I grew up in an extended family in a Southern European country where gender roles were quite distinct, as I think tends to happen when living conditions are quite tough - ie. men did most of the outdoor work because it was more physical, women the more indoor roles - (it was a farm). People didn't really have the luxury of worrying about gender roles, social conditioning, etc.

By the time I met DH, I was in London and had a professional career. I knew he was very obviously career driven when I met him, but the full implications of gender "conditioning" (his and mine) only really played out after children, I think. We have ended up in quite distinct roles, but it becomes difficult to deconstruct how much of this has been unconscious, how much was real choice and how much was simply driven by circumstances.

Sparrowhawk - thankyou for this thread and all your insightful and supportive comments.

For my own part, I don't even know where to begin. Having my 4 children has been the most liberating, life- affirming thing I've done, yet simultaneously the most restrictive. I've been a SAHM for 14 years. As I approach 40, I often wonder how, despite my education, my role in life has essentially turned out to be no different to that of my mother, or of my grandmother before here - just in far more affluent circumstances. I wonder what happened to my career- driven, "feminist" 20- something self. But then I wonder, does it matter?

Discovering this feminist board has been like getting back in touch with myself - so thanks everyone!

some workers gestate and give birth to babies is seen as a tack-on, an addition to 'standard' allowances.. I think you're right there.

It's odd, the feelings around caring for children and valuing that work. I am a SAHM, my husband is very supportive and insists that I am working hard and doing a good job. I have never had a job that would allow us to break even on paid childcare so it makes sense to care for them myself financially as well as emotionally. However, I still struggle to believe that I'm contributing to our household. It's hard to shake off the pressure from society that dictates "success" is about working at a paid job for as much money as possible. I don't earn at all, so must therefore be a failure? I don't think that of other parents who don't work, so why judge myself in such a way? It's very confusing.

The work place hasn't been built up solely around men. Women have always worked. During the industrial revolution many women worked - the majority of working class women in fact.

The issue is that 'women's work' was not valued. Nursing, caring, teaching we do it for love not pay. Value = money.

One might say that childbearing and childrearing is difficult to address because although producing new people is a public matter, it's also deeply personal. Nowadays we say it's voluntary, but even if that's true, it's only true until a child is born, and then you're stuck with it. If we made it more of a public matter throughout, then people would be sure to resent an intrusion into their lives.

And what's the value of love, worthless or priceless?

I have been known to rant at people who even allude to the idea that maternity leave is damaging to businesses. Generally this rant is along the lines of women not reproducing just to entertain ourselves and that men have just as much of a stake in the success and happiness of the next generation as women, and any company that believes that reproduction is an inconvenience is absolutely kidding itself considering that almost every single one of their employees will at some point have children if they haven't already. It's infuriating, the idea that children are an inconvenience.

I think it relates in some way to the present giving and house cleaning though. Social cohesion, nurturing and social / emotional bonds are considered to "belong" to women. Men are "allowed" to be selfish.

Marking my place.