Page 4 | Deprogramming

TheSparrowhawk · 2016-08-24T07:27:16+00:00

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread. I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I ^expected^ a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

Original poster

TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 11:10

I'm not on board with this 'fully paid' bullshit. Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take. The idea that men have to get a better deal or they just won't bother is so fucking insulting.

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Original poster

TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 11:09

Paternity leave should be compulsory, the same way maternity leave is (for the first two weeks)

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 31/08/2016 10:56

Regarding men not taking leave its shit.

I would love to see a system where men get 1 months leave - fully paid to be taken at the end of the partners mat leave.
You would still get some men not taking it but at least it gets round the "we can't afford it issue"

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 10:32

I do think things have improved definitely. But I also know a few men who didn't even take the basic two weeks paternity leave on the pretext that they 'couldn't' because it would 'look bad' or some such shit. It angers me that some men are happy to see their partners make massive sacrifices to bring children into the family but won't even take two measly weeks off themselves.

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 31/08/2016 10:28

While I think the fact that women lose out on a career is a definite problem I also feel that men do genuinely lose out by missing out on a lot of their children's childhoods

Yes I think a lot of fathers now are keen to be involved with their children. Less seem to be prepared to take the hit in a career sense though. I don't know many men who have gone part time to see their kids more.

Madinche1sea · 31/08/2016 10:25

Sparrowhawk - very true when you put it like that.

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 10:16

They're conditioned

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 10:15

I don't think it's a matter of 'right' and 'wrong' - there isn't a moral element to it all really.

Most people grow up wanting a good job and wanting a family at some point. As society currently stands, the vast majority of men get both, while a large proportion of women only get one.

While I think the fact that women lose out on a career is a definite problem I also feel that men do genuinely lose out by missing out on a lot of their children's childhoods. Their conditioned not to really care about it but I've known men in their 60s who look at their grown up children and truly despair at how much they missed.

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 31/08/2016 10:07

Equally I'd also like to a situation where more men are able to be truly involved in the upbringing of their children

I think this is improving though. I see loads of dads at school drop off (dh normally drops off but occasionally has an early meeting).

Definitely more mums than dads taking kids to parties but there's always some dads there.

I think it's moving in the right direction, we still need big improvements though.

Madinche1sea · 31/08/2016 10:00

As a SAHM approaching the age of 40, I admit it does feel humiliating to acknowledge that I haven't earned my "own" money in 14 years. I think it's quite shocking actually.

However, we chose to have 4 DC - none of them were accidents! Choices and compromises had to be made.

In some sense, it does feel like my own career potential has been hijacked by DH's career decisions and attitudes. On the other hand, I do think I should feel privileged to have been able to have this time with the DC and "opt out" of the pressures of the labour market and the need to juggle childcare, etc. Not everyone has this choice and I'm very aware of that. But how much of my situation was real choice and how much was a consequence of the reality of 4 DC and a workaholic husband, I'm not sure.

Basically, I don't know what to think.

Everyone's circumstances are so different, it's futile to try and reach any consensus about the "right" approach or how people should feel. For instance, in our local area, there is a high proportion of expat wives whose careers have been stunted because they don't even know where they will be living in two years time or whatever. Are they wrong in this lifestyle choice?

The irony in our case is that, when we decided to have DC, DH made the decision to leave a good career in the military because he didn't want to potentially be away from the family for 6 month stints. He started up his own businesses - things snowballed from there - now he's away on business probably 2 nights a week on average which adds up to about 3 months in a year anyway . Many families live like this though. I would say that good parenting is an attitude of mind (making the most of the time you do have with your family), rather than how many hours you work.

I do believe though, that women are far more programmed than men to feel guilty about their work/life balance, whatever choices they make.

Original poster

TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 09:44

Equally I'd also like to a situation where more men are able to be truly involved in the upbringing of their children.

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 31/08/2016 08:40

sparrow

I think it's very risky for an adult not to work for long periods of time WhenShe. I wouldn't say both parents should work as it's up to all individuals how they run their own lives. What I would say is that I'd like fewer parents, and women in particular, to feel they have no choice but to stay at home because the system makes a situation where both parents work unsustainable

I agree with every word of that (would never choose not to work myself but I know it works for other couples).
Really awful that people women don't see the point in work because child care costs more than they earn. I would have loved to have gone part time for a while but employer refused the request.

Decent part time jobs with good career progression are like gold dust.

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 08:30

That should say 'grateful for men allowing them to be SAHMs'

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 08:30

Also it bothers me that there seems to be an assumption that sacrifice is part of bring a mother and that women just need to accept that they can't 'have it all,' when no one seems to expect anywhere near the same level of sacrifice from dad's - the assumption is that his life will suffer minimal disruption, in fact it seems that on some level there's a belief that women should be grateful for allowing them to be SAHMs. Considering how well many men do out of the SAHM situation that is just bollocks.

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 08:22

I think it's very risky for an adult not to work for long periods of time WhenShe. I wouldn't say both parents should work as it's up to all individuals how they run their own lives. What I would say is that I'd like fewer parents, and women in particular, to feel they have no choice but to stay at home because the system makes a situation where both parents work unsustainable.

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 31/08/2016 08:18

I would suggest that both of the two people who decide to have children together balance caring for those children with paid work in a a system that recognises that caring for children is an essential occupation, not something that needs to be grudgingly 'accommodated

So does that mean both parents should work? I agree that caring responsibilities should be looked upon as essential and work should be more flexible to accommodate this.

Original poster

TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 08:11

I would suggest that both of the two people who decide to have children together balance caring for those children with paid work in a a system that recognises that caring for children is an essential occupation, not something that needs to be grudgingly 'accommodated'

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/08/2016 08:03

and there is enormous privilege and advantage in being able to pursue a lucrative career that attracts reward and recognition while never having to worry about childcare and while having the household lovingly run by someone who is highly invested in it but who receives no direct pay, recognition or advancement. In the event of a split the SAHP may be financially ok but the WOHP walks away with a well paying job and the years of advantage of having someone run their life for them. The SAHP meanwhile is often left as a single parent with little in the way of career prospects. The inequality is huge

What do you suggest then?

One could equally say there is enormous privilege and advantage in being able to opt out of the pressires of the labour market.

So far as the unpaid element- again what are you looking for? Wages for housework?

So far as recognition - by whom ? The partner who is working? Society? What form of recognition?

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TheSparrowhawk · 30/08/2016 23:30

The fact that part time working can also lead to resentment and the woman being default carer is all part of the same problem. Both men and women have children (with the obvious difference in terms of pregnancy and birth) yet the working world is built for people with no caring responsibilities, such that the 'allowances' for childbirth etc are tacked on and are seen as an inconvenience. Given that it's essential for a large proportion of any working generation to have children, the fact that caring for children isn't built in to work structures makes no sense. Well, it makes sense in a world where women are expected to give up all hope of a successful career and simply provide the care for free and at great personal cost.

The situation in whch being a SAHM seems inevitable isn't an unavoidable one by any means.

Also to be fair Madinche most jobs that support a whole family comfortably are not particularly humdrum, and there is enormous privilege and advantage in being able to pursue a lucrative career that attracts reward and recognition while never having to worry about childcare and while having the household lovingly run by someone who is highly invested in it but who receives no direct pay, recognition or advancement. In the event of a split the SAHP may be financially ok but the WOHP walks away with a well paying job and the years of advantage of having someone run their life for them. The SAHP meanwhile is often left as a single parent with little in the way of career prospects. The inequality is huge.

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sentia · 30/08/2016 20:43

I absolutely agree on the headspace thing. I'm the primary (only) breadwinner but DH for the most part is very rubbish at forward planning so I do quite a lot of it. I'm trying to let him just get on with things and be the person-in-charge for a lot of DD's stuff like nursery and activities, but it's very hard when I see things getting missed. Or done in what I consider to be a slightly half-arsed manner.

Madinche1sea · 30/08/2016 19:58

YY to the headspace thing - couldn't have said it better myself!

There is the other perspective though, that if both parents work (even if one is part- time) there is always going to be the inevitable "juggling game" (eg. which parent can take time off for this or that school event, holidays, etc) which can equally lead to conflict and resentment - particularly as, most of the time, it will be the woman who tends to be the one to compromise here. It's still stress which affects headspace - just a different kind of stress. Some people juggle better than others. Some people are more resilient to the day-to-day "humdrum" of being SAHM. To be honest, many (most) jobs are pretty humdrum too, unless you're one of the lucky ones who has found their vocation or something.

Of course, this does avoid the scenario that one person's career continues unhindered while the other's is non-existent.

As long as the woman does not feel undervalued or financially controlled by the DH, his career progression will obviously benefit her as well. Obviously, she will be entitled to half of everything in the event of a separation and, in many cases, would still be better off financially than if she was working.

As someone said above, for many people, the SAHM model just makes financial sense.

Also, not everybody has the kind of DH who has the work flexibility to be able to take up some slack at home, even if he had the inclination to do so.

Original poster

TheSparrowhawk · 30/08/2016 18:47

The headspace thing is a huge issue. Running a home and a family is very complicated and involves a lot of forward planning. If only one person takes on all of that planning then they'll be so bogged down with the relentlessness of it that they'll feel it's impossible to commit to anything else.

That's another reason why I'm not keen on the strict SAHP/WOHP split. It may be that essentially both partners are ok with it, money is shared equally etc but the fact is that running a home is tedious - there is very little of the challenge and reward found in paid jobs. Doing it almost entirely alone is especially hard. If one partner is bogged down in endless relentless detail while the other goes out, learns, meets people, gets promotions that is simply not fair. The working parent is getting far too much of the good deal - a job that they would have anyway if they were single, plus children they don't need to ever worry about, plus a clean house, cooked meals, laundry done etc etc. while the other person loses a huge amount - freedom, their own money (as opposed to shared money), the ability to grow and learn professionally etc. There is a huge benefit to being at home with children, but that benefit is largely confined to the children and the child/parent relationship. The parent, as an individual, gets lost in the whole thing. One day they're made redundant, when the children grow up and no longer need so much input, and what do they do then? What does the man who missed so much of his children's childhood do when he sees adults he never really took care of walking away? There is too much lost and not enough gained IMO.

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BertrandRussell · 30/08/2016 15:00

There was a very bad tempered mrs, miss,ms thread recently........

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 30/08/2016 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreshwaterSelkie · 30/08/2016 14:01

I'm not sure I understood your point about evil bitches deserving to die, bitof - is that happening here? (it wouldn't be the first time).