Deprogramming

Re men being less able to notice SEN signs, it could also be related to socialisation - men are typically socialised to be less aware of social / emotional cues in others, and like most human beings won't usually actively try to build the skill unless there is a direct benefit to them. Whereas women are more likely to be "trained" from an early age to pick up on subtle social and emotional cues.

What would be behind the man seeing it as some personal failure? And that putting their need for denial ahead of their dcs need for support?

Having grown up in an incredibly sexist community and family, I am now a mix of sometime unjustifiable anger and unconscious gendered behaviour. So...
-Being the one to care about the house bring a mess and getting angry with the family for not keeping it to my unattainably high standards. I should, but can't, chill out about it.

• working like crazy in a high pressure job to prove I'm better than the men around me - but getting stressed by it.
• calling out sexism wherever I see it - not a bad thing per se - and my adult dd's have picked up the baton, which is great.

My theory is the men see it as some kind of failure on their part to father SN children, so are in denial.

Interesting. I believe that men are generally less likely to seek medical attention for themselves/seek medical attention late (perception of weakness? Sense that they should simply endure? Burying head in sand/denial about illness)? I wonder if the reasons behind failure to seek SEN diagnosis is related. Of course in fairness, the average father has less contact both with their own children and other children than the average mother, so it is probably more difficult to see that their own child is not typical.

At the time I requested her referral to screening he couldn't see a problem

As a SN parent (DD with ASD) who socialises with lots of SN parents, this seems to be very very common.
So many of the mums bring their SN kids to various groups, while the dad stays away, and say their DH doesn't think anything is wrong with them.
My theory is the men see it as some kind of failure on their part to father SN children, so are in denial. I don't think it's unusual for people to accept a professional diagnosis over an amateur one though.

I do find it odd when people claim recognition and pay are not important. How many people would choose to be, say, a hairdresser if they were unpaid and had no hope of anyone taking any notice of what they do?

So who should be paying and recognising it? You keep saying this but offer no suggestion of how this is supposed to happen.

Nope, not grumpy. Anger entirely justifiable. He's getting sympathy because he doesn't see the kids during the week, when he probably never saw them much then anyway. You are the the mean ex-wife keeping him away from his children who doesn't even deign to have paid employment- utterly ignoring the fact that you have shouldered the bulk of the child rearing and enabled his career for years, with the result that you are likely now in a rather precarious position financially. It's shit.

Wow chunkymum can't believe how people completely flip the comments around! So women are lucky and men great whichever way round it is. Makes me so cross.

Sorry if this is last posting but this thread covers just about every rant I've had recently. Including a recent one in chat here. I am nodding along with all these posts.

Not sure how much sense I made on the thread. I was pretty pissed off but will copy my OP below. I should have posted here! Responses by the end were a bit annoying.

^Recently separated, a fact I seem to have started a dozen bloody threads with - sorry, and my current irritation is all the bloody sympathy for my STBXH - the long list of people (add my mother) who are sorry for poor dads who lose out when it comes to contact/residence of the children. Poor Ex-H. Its so sad for him, it's so tough on the dads....etc^

^I am a SAHM, I have little prospects of a good career again (though obviously there's no reason for me not to get a wee fucking Saturday job now). DH has doubled his salary since I left work. Has a job I would love - and be good at. He works during the week and sees his kids as much as he wants when not working - so most of the weekend.^

^What more can I do? The DC are with me because I have been their main carer for years.^

^It really pisses me off that DH is an amazing provider, a great "hands on" father and has everyone's sympathy because the children aren't with him on weekdays.^

^Am I just grumpy or is this justifiable anger?^

Another area where the roles are so divided is identifying special needs in dc. I have often wondered out loud to DH how long he would have taken to pick up on dd's social difficulties which led to me getting her the necessary attention to be dx with ASD, and quite quickly once she'd had the first assessment. I appreciate I am with her more, but he's with her a lot too. At the time I requested her referral to screening he couldn't see a problem although I had explained my concerns. He was surprised by the dx whereas I wasn't. He now says it's obvious to him. But is that because a professional agreed with me?

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting.

My DH was the SAHP when our children were small. We had quite a few discussions about how differently people in general treated both of us than they would have done if I was the one at home. Even though the reality was that this was the only economically viable option I lost count of the number of family and friends who told me how lucky I was to be able to work long hours away from my children because DH was selfless enough to out his (then non existent) career on hold. DH was also frequently congratulated on by relative strangers on what a good job he was doing by managing to cope with a baby as well as taking a toddler out and about to join in activity groups not to mention the swoons of amazement that he also cooked a meal for both of us in the evening ready for when I got in. He seemed to think that all SAHP would get this appreciation.

There was one time when he took the DC away on his own for a few days (I was called away on urgent business) when he did comment to me that everyone in the hotel/tourist attractions etc was fussing over him and making sure he never had to queue/collect his own drinks etc but he ahd noticed that mums alone with their children were basically treated as a bit of a nuisance if they were struggling to juggle buggies/food/toddlers etc.

I really think that the average man is entirely blind to this difference in the way men and women are treated as parents.

And that when dh's family members give us cakes it's me they show it to, not their relative because he has a penis which renders him incapable of complimenting or caring about a cake. Where's my vagina affords me the necessary soft skills to sound interested in how long it took, I can't wait to try it, I looks amazing etc.

Not sure if this is the right place to vent. I've recently been doing some diy to the front of the house which involves using power tools. Two neighbour's have said stuff like 'I'm impressed. You're doing a great job' etc etc. Now I know they're just making chit chat but it reveals the underlying assumption that tools are for men. I asked DH how he'd feel if people came over and told him they were impressed if he was using a drill. He agreed it was small talk but he would be offended. But they wouldn't say that to a man would they.

FurryGiraffe - you're right. I've never really needed recognition from anyone else for parenting my own kids because it's an instinct. Yes it's a job, but it's far more than that.

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting. My DH was once congratulated by a (female) friend of his for managing to bring wet wipes and crayons when taking our (then) 2 year old out for lunch

I can only hope that the more we see men out and about with their kids the less surprised people will be.

I do find it odd when people claim recognition and pay are not important. How many people would choose to be, say, a hairdresser if they were unpaid and had no hope of anyone taking any notice of what they do?

Well we go back to the idea that caring for one's own children is a privilege- and therefore one needs no recognition of course. In fact, to need/want recognition for the hard work one does in bringing up one's own children is to degrade the relationship between mother and child and reduce it to the level of a transaction.

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting. My DH was once congratulated by a (female) friend of his for managing to bring wet wipes and crayons when taking our (then) 2 year old out for lunch.

X-post Sparrowhawk.
Yes! A babysitter once watched DH playing with DS when he got home to relieve her (I was still at work), and said "it's so lovely to see a hands-on dad." Now, he is much more than many (and it's getting better), but really? That's a big assumption to make from a 5-min tussle on the sofa. I doubt anyone would say that to me if I spent 5 minutes playing with DC.

Flexibility is certainly important. Despite the fact that I work a much more pressurised job than DH since his change of job, and despite having more hours, there is no denying that I have a flexibility that he doesn't, partly because the job can take it, but mostly because I have the most understanding and accommodating boss ever. When my DS was ill 50% of the time between 1 and 3 years, he let me take the time off unquestioningly, knowing that I would still do the work. That is very, very rare. But that's one of the solutions to the whole thing. I did do the work. It was hard, but I did, because my boss had faith in me that I would and left me to sort it out in a way that mad everything possible.

And the thing about gaining recognition for what we do is much, much more important than it looks. A friend of mine had to go back into the paid workforce earlier than she intended, her youngest of three was still at primary school. She couldn't even get a cleaning job because they said she had no experience. Perhaps that's an extreme example, but I think there is a LOT of assumption that SAHMs have no transferable skills whatsoever.

Sorry- that should say there is little privilege not there is no little privilege

Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take

Should have said women should get at least one month on full pay too. Trust me I know what sat maternity pay is like - my employer only paid the basics.

In some sense, it does feel like my own career potential has been hijacked by DH's career decisions and attitudes. On the other hand, I do think I should feel privileged to have been able to have this time with the DC and "opt out" of the pressures of the labour market and the need to juggle childcare, etc. Not everyone has this choice and I'm very aware of that. But how much of my situation was real choice and how much was a consequence of the reality of 4 DC and a workaholic husband, I'm not sure.

I think this is the crux of it actually. There is I think often a perception that SAHM is a position of 'privilege'- that women who SAH should be grateful to their DH's for taking the financial burden and freeing them to be at home with the children. But in practice (a) the DH gains considerably in career terms and (b) only a proportion of what a lot of SAHMs do is a privilege. Yes, a SAHM might enjoy the time with the DC, but there is no little privilege in being cleaner/cook/household organiser/financial dependent. There are gains, yes, but there are also considerable costs and the costs often seem to get lost.

I'm not on board with this 'fully paid' bullshit. Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take. The idea that men have to get a better deal or they just won't bother is so fucking insulting.

But if your mentality is that the woman's career is secondary/expendable, while the man is breadwinner, then this attitude makes sense. His career is more important because he is supporting the family, so he can't afford (financially or in career terms) to take time off. The woman's career is by contrast seen as optional so the financial and personal damage of maternity leave is acceptable.