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Original poster

Deprogramming

292 replies

TheSparrowhawk · 24/08/2016 08:27

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

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Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 03/09/2016 16:08

What you're feeling is such a common thing Monison - deprogramming definitely needed! DH and I recently started a company together. I'm technically higher up than he is and have more responsibility for getting the business going, but one of our clients needs him five days a week at the moment so we've fallen very much into the man going out to work/woman staying at home dynamic again. I need to get work done at weekends as I have so little time to do it during the week but I feel bad about it - even though it's vital for our business! DH is absolutely fine with it btw - it's all coming from me. The mindset that I have to be around the family, that I can't just walk off and leave him to it, is so ingrained.

The reason it's so ingrained, of course, is that there was a time in our relationship where I had to ask DH to watch the children while I had a fucking shower, whereas he would walk off and wash himself whenever he wanted. The baseline assumption was that the children were 100% my responsibility at all times, so that I had to ask permission to be relieved of it. If I was there, he could just assume I was watching them, whereas I could never assume the same thing about him. A big crunch point was when I asked him one evening to watch the kids (who were both toddlers, one a very young toddler who was into everything) while he ate so I could clear some stuff that was in the dining room. I warned him I'd be taking trips to the bin so the front door would be open and he'd need to watch crazy toddler. On one such trip to the bin I turned around to see said toddler just about to come out the door after me and DH nowhere in sight. When I went in, steaming, to ask what the fuck was going on, he got all huffy and claimed he was 'busy' eating!!! What the fuck he thought happened to his children during the day while I ate my lunch is beyond me. I tore his head off. I couldn't even have 5 measly minutes, not to sit painting my toenails, but to do some fucking housework!!

Have you talked to your DH about the discrepancy between his ability to go off to work and yours?

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Monison · 03/09/2016 15:11

Really interesting discussion. I am coming to the end of 5 yrs as SAHM by returning to full time study in a couple of weeks: a masters that I hope will lead to a fulfilling career. The number of people applauding my DH for supporting this choice has been surprising: like I am indulgently going off to think about fairies or something rather than committing to an intense and difficult workload. In prep for the course I have been ploughing through loads of reading material in the evenings and have been horrified to observe myself trying to slot it in after the rest of it: family days out/housework/childcare etc rather than carve out some solid time on my own. Last Saturday I announced that I was off to the library to study as fewer distractions: my DH made a sad face and tried to convince me to have a family day. His right to time away from the family for work/study is just assumed. There is zero thought attached to him going off to do work. In contrast I find myself seeking permission to do the same, almost like it's not work and merely a vanity project. And the guilt because I want to hit the books and will enjoy it makes me think it's not work. But of course it is isn't it.

Ninja12345 · 02/09/2016 19:05

A great thread. I have a 5 month DS And I want to bring him up to be a feminist. There's obvious things to do but I worry that it will be all the subconscious things that I do that he'll pick up on. It would be useful for all parents to have a list/ suggestions about dos and don'ts (or maybe that's just me). Can anyone recommend any good websites so I can get ahead?

sentia · 02/09/2016 18:42

Sad but I think true One. We are in the UK and in a place with a LOT of SAHMs so I imagine her school friends' parents once we get to that point will give her ample opportunity to see the opposite dynamic to ours.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 02/09/2016 18:28

It's a good question Sentia - I think that it's likely that your DD will be as impacted by seeing the reverse dynamic in parents of friends and family, as she will be by her experience at home. Hopefully seeing your DH being the SAHP will mean that she doesn't fall into the trap of thinking that women have to be the one to stay home with the kids, but unless you live somewhere very different to the UK I doubt she'll believe the opposite either.

sentia · 02/09/2016 18:23

It's a good point about the deprogramming having to work on both sides, male and female.

In DH's case, his deprogramming has been driven by two things - economic reality meaning he is the logical SAHP and also having a DD. But he still doesn't remember to do everything.

One thing I have wondered about, re socialisation and programming (especially now I have a DD and another one on the way) is the extent to which parental role models are universal vs sex-specific. What I mean is - will DD grow up understanding that she can choose a path she wants, whether that is primary caregiver to children like DH or whether that is career focussed like me. Or if she will internalise that career is "what women do" just because that's what mummy does. I would prefer (obviously) that she doesn't link any non-biological choices to being male/female, but I don't really understand how gender-based socialisation works on a psychological and neurological level.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 02/09/2016 15:53

And yes, I've found a lot of the stories about Nadiya very sad since she won the Bake Off - she said on Women's Hour that when she did her A-levels she was planning about what she could do with them, because she didn't want to face up to reality that she was just going to be married off to have children.

I don't think it's very surprising that she does all that for her husband when that's the background she comes from.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 02/09/2016 15:50

You're right, Sparrow and it does worry me - we are very fortunate to have generous paternity leave at our work and as much as I would love children if he showed that he is less than committed by refusing to take proper advantage of that paternity leave then I would not want to have children with him tbh.

Of course, I'm sure men take (sole) paternity leave and still end up as lazy fathers, but at least it would go some of the way to preventing that inequality when men believe that women who stay home with the baby are doing "nothing" all day.

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 02/09/2016 15:22

It was so fucking sad seeing Nadiya (of Bake Off fame) saying that while she was away on a trip of a lifetime, she had done an online shop and would have to remind her husband to give packed lunches to his children. How many women would fail to stock the cupboards/give their children lunch while their husband was away??

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TheSparrowhawk · 02/09/2016 15:20

Had I discussed equality in parenting with DH before we had kids he would have said all the right things. When it came down to it, he avoided doing anything that was any way difficult for him. When children are involved you absolutely have to step in and do it yourself. Thus the inequality builds up and builds up.

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Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 02/09/2016 15:13

once a baby arrives

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TheSparrowhawk · 02/09/2016 15:13

The difficulty though, OneFlew, is that he may agree with you that his expectations are unreasonable, but if he doesn't genuinely and thoroughly address where those expectations came from, there is a real danger that they'll come back kicking again once a baby At that point you will be so shell shocked and exhausted from having a new baby that you simply won't have the brainspace or energy to fight it. The last thing you need in that situation is to have to beg someone to do their bit.

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OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 02/09/2016 15:05

Fat chance Sparrow! I think DP was quite surprised to realise that I didn't intend to be barefoot and pregnant like his mother was - you'd think the hoards of books on feminism might have given him a clue but there you go.

I think this is where deprogramming is so important too - because I wouldn't say that DP holds sexist views, at least consciously, and yet as soon as you hit that barrier of having children all these underlying assumptions about the natural role of men and women seem to come out of the woodwork and it took a very frank conversation to point out that I had no intention of being that woman.

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 02/09/2016 14:31

See, in that situation OneFlew, you're supposed to nod meekly and acknowledge that while your body, career and everything else about your life may be irrevocably changed by children, your husband should not be inconvenienced in any way by your silly urge to procreate.

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OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 01/09/2016 13:28

This is such an interesting thread - I think deprogramming is such a good word to describe what needs doing as well, because it's so easy to see everything as individual choices without realising that we've all been socialised to act in certain ways.

I don't have children but DP & I both work for a company with the ability to take paternity leave in the place of maternity leave. When I mentioned this he instantly stated that he couldn't take paternity leave because it would be bad for his career. I don't even think he thought through the implications that maternity leave would have for me - it was just straight to his unthinking self-prioritisation.

I was very clear that I have no intention of parenting with someone who doesn't expect to change their life to accommodate a child and I think we've come to an understanding but obviously that won't be tested until children are more firmly on the cards. Unfortunately it seems to be a default position for some men that children are something a woman wants and that men will allow or put up with - it's not a dynamic I'm willing to put up with!

HyacinthFuckit · 01/09/2016 11:38

It is indeed. Most women tag it onto ML either start or finish, and if you're on SMP it's the only full pay you'll be getting. The 6 weeks at 90% is also part of SMP.

FurryGiraffe · 01/09/2016 11:10

The statutory minimum in the UK is 90% of full/average pay for 6 weeks, then statutory maternity pay (currently £139.58) for a further 33 weeks. Any accrued annual leave is in addition to that.

HyacinthFuckit · 01/09/2016 09:51

Should have said women should get at least one month on full pay too. Trust me I know what sat maternity pay is like - my employer only paid the basics.

You're presumably talking about the annual leave accrued over ML, which is a touch disingenuous.

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 21:24

Also, a male friend of mine was a right dick when his DD was born - he expected his very very sleep deprived wife, who was struggling with a really difficult baby, to have the house spotless at all times, to cook his dinner, do his laundry etc. Then, when the DD was about 14 months (and still a difficult baby) the roles changed and he became a SAHP. He very very quickly changed his tune. Even years later he would get very upset talking about it, saying how he'd never make it up to her and he'd make sure she wouldn't have to lift a finger for the next 12 years (the number of years in which he didn't pull his weight around the house, mostly pre-DD of course). Until he had to do it himself, and he found it very hard, he couldn't see what a dick he was being - he genuinely thought his lovely wife was just shirking (though why she would do that is anyone's guess - she's far from lazy.)

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 21:14

I think part of the problem is that running a home/looking after children is seen as a menial job that anybody could do - that it requires no particular skill or mental ability. In actual fact, keeping even adequate control of a household and children requires a very large amount of quite complex, endless and tedious planning and things go wrong very quickly if you're not on top of it. Because men have subtly been taught that 'women's work' isn't very valuable, it's all a bit silly, they don't see any real need to put any effort into it - they just wing it, and of course it's all a mess because really, you can't wing it, not for any length of time.

DH and I had massive problems wrt housework and childcare, so massive that I asked for a divorce. He pulled his finger out majorly but soon it became clear that he genuinely thought he could put effort into running the house for two weeks and that would be enough, it would somehow all magically keep running after that. It took him an amazingly long time to realise that actually running a house takes effort and planning every single fucking day, all the time, constantly. You can't just do it once and it's done (unlike traditionally 'male' jobs, which do tend to result in a noticeable difference, like a new piece of furniture, and tend to be one-off or once every couple of weeks) and often you have to do the same thing over and over and over and over without anybody taking any notice at all. It has finally sunk in for him and he find it exhausting. I have no sympathy whatsoever.

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DrDiva · 31/08/2016 19:49

Not seeing SN has parallels in other areas. My DS is allergic to dairy. I pushed this for ages on my own. DH was certainly first to come round to the idea (unlike the consultant paediatrician who told me I was a hysterical mother who was trying to medicalise my child), but it took time. As did the add-on diagnosis of soya intolerance when DS was put on soya milk and within two weeks was screaming the house down again.

As for my FIL's comments about DS when he was born 9 weeks early, I can't even write them here, and I find it very hard to forgive him for them. Nothing the same from MIL.

Original poster
TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 17:32

I don't think SAHPs should necessarily be paid Lass, though I am in favour of child benefit, tax credits etc. My point is that childrearing should be recognised by the government, society and employers not as an annoying inconvenient thing women do but as a normal thing to expect many men and women of childbearing age to do so that it has to be built in to the structure of work. My aim would be that women don't feel pushed out of work because work sees caring commitments as being g entirely their inconvenient problem.

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TheSparrowhawk · 31/08/2016 17:18

If you don't look after a child say in and day out it can be easy to see SN behaviours as naughtiness because you're not getting the full picture. The fact that some men simply don't trust their female partners to know when a child needs help comes from a more deep seated misogyny I think.

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MrNoseybonk · 31/08/2016 14:49

Also, perhaps they have pre-conceived ideas that conditions like autism are somehow not real, down to bad parenting. I hear stories of the SN dad's being too strict, thinking the kids are "just naughty".

MrNoseybonk · 31/08/2016 14:47

What would be behind the man seeing it as some personal failure?

I think the machismo they are conditioned to. To not be weak, to not be less than their peers. Men ridicule each other for "firing blanks" and all sorts of attacks on their masculinity by their so called mates.

And that putting their need for denial ahead of their dcs need for support?

Ultimately, selfishness probably. But then, if they're in denial, they're not accepting it, so in their minds they aren't putting their needs first.