Deprogramming

Buffy: it isn't really a great solution to the judging the wife but not the husband for cleaning thing, but a few times I have had a general tidy but left things that are in a bad state but are chores assigned to DH (rather than doing his jobs too or standing over him before a visit). But then if MIL says anything I make sure she knows that is his assigned job. In general I don't really like not being a 'United front' with my DH, but in this I feel that if he is so willing to be judged on mess, he should be the one actually getting judged (I still get judged too, for living with the visible mess) - bring united in consequences seems fairer there.

That's great, Lass. Add that to the many reasons why you're not a feminist and see no need for feminism.

But a moment's thought would reveal that there are many women who have not yet reached your point of enlightenment and are struggling with stuff like this.

Sorry posted too soon.

The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family

I haven't the faintest idea what the birthday date is of any of husband's family. I've never sent cards or presents to any of them at birthdays or Christmas. It never occurred to me to do so. If he did it himself before he met why would I take it over? If he didn't do it before, why would I start?

*The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family

Of course, I could say "fuck off out of my cupboards you crazy dirt obsessed old bag"

Oooh, wouldn't you love to?!

My people pleasing is out of hand. After years of spending literally EVERY single special occasion, including my own birthdays cleaning the house and cooking for in-laws (same reasons as above, H not bothered), I am STILL cooking for my PIL every week - despite having separated from husband.

I think I'm atoning for being a woman who has broken up her family. It has actually been pointed out by a friend that it's unusual for a woman to choose to break up the family home, she could never do it. My family and friends feel sorry for him.

My mum's answer to the guilt about leaving is that I can help stbxh feel a little better, buying him his favourite foods etc. Like it's still my role to look after him.

I get the point about rational/emotional. I'm feeling pissed off about it - I know it's not right. I just need to shed the obligation/guilt feelings.

I deliberately don't know when DH's parents' birthdays are.

He spent a few years watching me carefully selecting nice flowers for my mum from interflora, buying stuff from Amazon for my dad (we live far away) and now actually seems to have got the hang of it himself.

I did get some remarks from his mum early on about it being his dad's birthday soon etc, so I just said I'd let him know, didn't know if he'd got him anything yet etc.

The cards and presents thing is another area I really struggle with, which is also portrayed by men as "silly" and unnecessary. I don't think DH would ever consider giving Christmas and birthday gifts to his (much younger than him) cousins or his sister and her family.

So I choose, buy, wrap and post presents each year for his family because I think it's important to let them know we're thinking of them and we miss them (they live in another country). DH is oblivious to this type of social obligation and how social cohesion from all of these little things actually benefits everyone. He tells me not to bother.

I managed to extricate myself from buying gifts for his parents but he still plaintively asks me every year what I think I should get for them. I don't bloody know! The present choosing part of my brain is tired from all the other choosing!!

You forgot another impact Buffy - if I don't have the house in a relatively fit state (lucky my mother is fairly un house-trained, and my MIL has given up on DP and I being conventional), then they will help me out

Which of course means a job is either done how I wouldn't have done it, or badly done, or I feel that I have to pitch in and help... When really, all I want is to get them a cup of tea, and let them play with the kids.

DH and I share household chores. He hoovers the house, cleans the bathrooms, irons, does financial stuff, cooks 2x a week, takes bins out and we share the gardening.

When he's done a chore I have to fight the urge to say Thanks.
I shouldn't have to thank him, we share things and he doesn't always thank me every time I do one of my chores (he often does, especially cooking).
Yet I try to find a way to compliment the chore [Oh the hall looks really good!] without actually thanking him as though he's doing me a favour.
That annoys me.

I have noticed how frequently I revert to male as default. I consciously try to call the duplo figures man or woman interchangeably, and the woman with the flower on her top is often the train driver.
Low point - calling a full-uddered cow "he".
I do a weird thing where I blurt out "... or she..." after I've just male-defaulted all over the place.

I will be watching this thread with interest.
Great idea OP!

I was lucky. I grew up in the 60 s and my Mum and Dad were I guess fairly progressive and shared the housework etc. In fact often my Dad did more as he was home from work before my Mum. The shock for me came when I left home and started adult relationships with men who had grown up in patriarchal families. I thought for a long time it must be me who was in the wrong,insisting on equality and asserting myself.

Oh, no disagreement from me here, Tei & Sparrow. Where is Mr Selkie in all this, we ask ourselves? But that is another thread for another day, I'm not feeling robust enough for that bit of deprogramming today. Which probably just wheels round to the original point that I'm pointing at my MIL & Mum for creating the problem while the husband exits stage left, blame free... not great, is it?

And mothers and mothers in law are just as much victims of. conditioning as we are- if not more so.

I really think FreshwaterSelkie's partner has a role to play there, and he's failing in it. Particularly when it's his own mother, he should be saying "Mum, we run our house so we're comfortable in it. And if you want to be critical, I'd rather you tell it to me and not Selkie." (Slight emphasis on our and we there.)

Shame on the older generation for not being tactful. It's the grandparents I blame.

boldly, oh thank goodness, I thought I was the only one. I tried really hard to be the academic I thought I was supposed to be because obviously wanting to have children and stay home with them was completely anti-feminist and wrong.

As a result, I spent several years severely depressed and feeling shit about my failing self. Now, I'm a SAHM to 3 complete snuggles and I am sometimes sad because that's only human but it is nothing like that.

Relevant to the thread, I am trying to get my DC to understand that domestic work is important and not trivial. But it's hard when so many things you read often have a thinly veiled contempt for domesticity. It's not the real world, after all.

Also, I owe thanks to this board for showing me that feminism and SAHMing are definitely not mutually exclusive. So thank you, you terrifying lot .

Enjoying this thread.

Grew up in a very traditional household with DF being "head of the household". DM very much concerned with the Wifework and always, always deferred to DF. Even when he was wrong or unreasonable.

Like a pp she feels me and DSis are "too hard" on our DPs for expecting hands on help with the DC. Very fixed views on gender differences and feels women have natural affinity for nurture that men don't.

I caught myself recently saying to DC "don't worry daddy will fix it when he comes home" then mentally gave myself a slap and got the screwdriver out.

I have to check myself daily re balancing gender norms in stories / books / cartoons.

Hard work but slowly the mindset is changing.