Deprogramming

sentia I too thought about the relationship/abuse comparison. I struggle with differentiating between abusive and feminist/patriarch issues.

Taking responsibility feels empowering because it takes you out of victim mode but in my experience created a feeling of self loathing. it takes more strength I think to acknowledge the influences on your behaviour and your weaknesses (susceptibility better word?). Im guessing it is much more difficult to learn how to change behaviour patterns if ignoring a significant element of the cause.

If we were already deprogrammed and could blithely fling off the shackles of societal gender-based oppression simply by choosing not to do things like tidy the house before the in-laws arrive, then we wouldn't need a thread to discuss it, would we?

It's a bit victim-blamey to say "why are you still doing these unfeminist things you stupid women". Do you also sit on the Relationships board, Lass, and tell women who have been systematically emotionally abused that you don't understand why they're making it so complicated, they should just leave?

How much longer?

I don't know. And I agree that women are part of the problem.

Particularly women who put their fingers in their ears and refuse to accept that the choices we make are not "free" but influenced by the society we live in, and the models of femininity we were brought up with and are sold by th media.

How much longer? As long as it takes

The point is that there isn't someone willing to do this shit. And it damages relationships - not just husband/wife relationships, but whole family dynamics. Why can you not see that? honestly, I give up. There's a lot of stuff I agree with you about, bu you're the "all lives matter" of the feminist board, sometimes, you really are.

Feminism hasn't "failed" but it has not yet attained its goals of the liberation of women from these expectations

How much longer do you want? For example every Christmas produces threads on here bemoaning the difficulty of buying presents for husband's distant relatives.

At what point (if ever?) do you stop blaming systemic limitations and take responsibility for what you will or won't do? If you don't, you are perpetuating these limitations- why would the person being freed of these tedious tasks take them on when apparently there is some one willing to do them?

Thank you for that explanation FreshwaterSelkie.

Bugger! part of a sentence disappeared.

"Some women have broken free of them, some don't find them burdensome, but a lot of women do and that's not necessarily due to their personal limitations or failures".

If feminism can't, after all these years lead a woman to say "sod cleaning the oven/ buying your mother's birthday present/ tidying up because mother in law is visiting" without feeling guilty then , to me, something has failed.

Well, yes. But I'd phrase it a little differently. Feminism hasn't "failed" but it has not yet attained its goals of the liberation of women from these expectations. We're not there yet, as threads like these demonstrate. It's not about an individual failure on behalf of those of us who aren't happy with how our domestic lives are arranged. The systemic limitations (I'm avoiding using the "P" word) are recognised, we can see them, but that's not at all the same thing as changing them. Some women have broken free of them, some don't find them burdensome, but that's not necessarily due to their personal limitations or failures. You can't know the factors that make it harder for one woman than for another.

It's like telling someone they're fat or they drink too much. from the outside, the solution is obvious - eat less, drink less. But the simplicity of the solution does nothing the address the complexity of making lasting change, or the circumstances of their life.

I don't disagree with your view Lass. How did I become such a "doormat" bothers me. But it's not really helpful and I try not to speak to myself in those terms.

I'm maybe not typical of others here because my life is more than just a feminist failure... but it's hugely reassuring to read intelligent informed articulate strong women posting their own issues. As is the acknowledgement that resistance takes work. Thinking about the role of socialisation very much feels like a good first step to change.

I'm sure you don't care in the slightest about my input but that is my view and it's not really for you to dictate who can or can't post.

If feminism can't, after all these years lead a woman to say "sod cleaning the oven/ buying your mother's birthday present/ tidying up because mother in law is visiting" without feeling guilty then , to me, something has failed.

I'm not a mother in law but if /when that happens I sincerely hope my son and daughter in law don't specially tidy up for me. Should the house be a mess I will however assume it's my son's fault not my daughter in law's ( as he is as untidy and lazy about domestic matters as his mother)

How do we change it? Talking about it, as we're doing here, is a good first step. You coming here claiming there's no problem is not helpful

But you are not changing it are you? You are talking about these subtle assumptions, doing a lot of complaining about them but apparently doing little to change them.

Threads like this make me think you are living in a time warp in the 1950s.

What do I get out of this ? I'm trying to understand why despite on the one hand the idea that women's lives are constrained by the patriarchy is a given on here , there seems to be an acceptance of "oh well, that is just the way it is , far too difficult to change"

Why turn yourself into a doormat or a domestic servant?

What suddenly changes when you meet a man? And why is this change irristiblle?

You are all intelligent women but why aren't you standing up to these assumptions?

If your partners were capable of dealing with family birthdays etc before they met you why do they lose that ability?

If they were not capable/ not interested why does it become your problem?

Why facilitate this apparent loss of ability? Were you asked to take on these burdens or did you just assume them because you think you are meant to?

awaits with bated breath Lass' eHow article on how to resist everyday manifestations of one's female socialisation without additional emotional or physical labour>

There seems on threads like this very little attempt to resist it- if anything burdens are assumed and then complained about.

You (general you) want society to change and be less patrirachical. That seems an unlikely outcome if matters within your own homes under your own control can't be changed.

it's a voluntary contract that you are 100% entitled to end.

Off topic but interesting you say this. I am this weekend going to return to the divorce application that stalled because the supporting statements i provided weren't sufficient to warrant a divorce.

I will tell them to fuck off one day but maybe when I have a job, maintenance agreement and some form of independence.

A bunch of 10-11 year old were throwing things around in a toddler play area a while back. They were a school football team on an outing. There was only one girl in the group. When it got out of hand and I told them to calm it down, guess who I addressed my comments to? The girl. I was so horrified when I realised.

Yes I agree that it's the compulsion (to tidy or buy presents or whatever) that's the issue. I feel the same. Hence the often-discussed fact that "equal" in a relationship re sharing of the load of running a life often means "equal" at a task level but not a mental effort level.

It might be because female social conditioning to care and nurture and maintain social bonds is actually a really important underpinning of a happy productive group environment for a social mammal. But it is very high effort, and quite complex (witness the many many MN ettiquettey threads about all sorts of social interaction and what's correct or not). So not something men are wildly keen about taking on, as a generalisation. But everyone benefits from it, so attempts to drop the workload are fought against.