Deprogramming

This was sent to me by a colleague today

www.facebook.com/MANWHOHASITALL/

Old news to many, I expect, but still.

I've been thinking about this thread for a day or two. The issue for me is not deprogramming as if the programming was set in place as a child and I now have to undo it. A bit like my old VCR, I think I was resistant to programming. I've always done what I want, my way. What strikes me, though, is the ongoing grind of gendering. I'm resistant to this in the sense that it doesn't change me, but it does affect me. Because I so often go against what people expect of me as a woman or publicly question it, I do get a lot of criticism and vitriol. For example, I chose not to give up my job (it was an entry level to a career job) to follow a partner, instead suggesting that if he wanted to keep the relationship we'd have to go LDR. OMG - the criticism from others! I was being mean, selfish, etc. Beyond this I had other well-meaning friends telling me just to pack up and go - I would not look back, etc. Besides this, there are the talk-overs, put-downs and suchlike in the workplace. For example, in a meeting a while ago I said 'I think if you look at the figures you will find x'. I was roundly put back in my box. But I had looked at the figures and I knew that x would be found. Sure enough, when a male found it, everyone fell at his feet, praising him. This is not a lack of assertiveness. In fact, I'm told I'm too assertive, blunt and even aggressive for a woman. That does not go down well.

I say this because I think the issue is not just about throwing off childhood conditioning. It is also about what I call the ongoing violence of gendering - in other words the reinforcement of conditioning and/ or chastisement or penalties for not conforming to accepted gender roles. This makes it harder and more complex for those who are struggling with deprogramming and just a constant grind for those of us who have less of an issue with this but just want to be able to live as we are.

I'm not sure if this helps or hinders the discussion, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

"The International Wages for Housework Campaign was a global social movement co-founded in 1972 in Padua, Italy by author and activist Selma James. The Campaign was formed to raise awareness of how housework and childcare are the base of all industrial work and to stake the claim that these unavoidable tasks should be compensated as paid wage labor."
and child benefit payments, tax credits etc are effectively this. Used to be the money my mum had that was hers, apart from the housekeeping she got (whilst never knowing what my dad earned). Odd that Lass should come up with this Italian Marxist concept!

I've just finished reading this thread while my DW put the DC to bed! and while I won't bullshit anyone that its changed my life around, I certainly have a lot to think about, especially on the detail of home life.

It has often occurred to me that work-life while success is measured by the achievement and status of the individual -- "my salary" or "my headcount" or "my place on the org. chart" rather than the success of the enterprise as a whole. Which leads me to ask: What would a feminist view of success in the workplace look like?

I can relate to those who absorbed the message that so-called "wife work" (ugh) is of lesser value. My mum was badfly abused by my father in many ways and by the time I was 10 I knew that II never wanted to 'end up like that'.

I am getting good at deprogramming myself with regards to sex. In my uni years I definitely felt a sense that men just liked sex more, and that it was mean to say no. Especially if I had led someone on by kissing and being walked home.

I do, however, need to stop worrying about how I'm not married and don't have kids. I don't particularly want those things, but I often find myself justifying my decisions. Especially to the people who do head tilt at me when I say I'm single.

I suppose alongside those who immediately think abuse there are always some responses asking the OP how her partner has or would react if she explained her feelings. A sensible conversation I didn't have. Wouldn't have changed the course of my relationship as this wasn't the only issues but I may have felt better about our ongoing separated relationship (young children). But I already feel different thinking about my own programming at play.

The book sounds interesting given how many couples seem to get tangled up over differing sex drives.

I tend to have extremely low interest in sex when it's not available to me. So I can definitely relate on that point. I found the first chapter about anatomy and masturbation and self examination quite difficult to get past, but it is worth it in my opinion - but the activities it suggests do assume that you have an active sex life. But you don't need to do the activities.

The most valuable/interesting thing I've got out of it so far is the idea that there's no such thing as a "sex drive" but in fact the desire for sex is, very much like other bodily systems, a system which is excited by certain factors and inhibited by other factors. When your sexual excitement exceeds your inhibition then you feel like you want sex. When your inhibition exceeds your excitement, then you don't. The author uses the metaphor of a sexual "accelerator" and sexual "brakes" and explains that how people talk about sex drive is slightly flawed - a person you'd think of having a "high sex drive" just has a sensitive accelerator and not very sensitive brakes, and that all of us will have varying sensitivity of both. If you want to read about this theory without buying the book you can find information under a google search for "SIS and SES".

Oh hang on, you're talking about coerced sex. I'd got my wires crossed a bit.

I do think there's a lot of coercive/expected sex going on which is not happening within abusive relationships, and absolutely, where the woman is making the assumption that she should be doing it/going along with things rather than the man putting any actual pressure on, and most likely would be horrified if he knew, but because it's largely unconscious on behalf of both of them neither really are aware of what's playing out, and as a result she just assumes that she doesn't really like sex very much or falls back on (nasty, pernicious, I now find) jokes about how "He'll think it's his birthday!" or similar because actually it is a bit of a chore.

I guess I'm wondering whether we're labeling men as abusers when they are not. rather than women changing abusers. Not really a deep or complicated reasoning, just thinking about how deeply our own conditioning runs.

I downloaded a sample of that book Bertie but with no interest now or ever? in sex it seemed a bit pointless me reading it. Maybe it's one to go back to one day.

I think Relate counsellors are (sadly) pretty misinformed about abuse.

There are a lot of misunderstandings about abuse actually and I think it is helpful to talk about them.

I don't think abusers are generally unaware of how their partners feel. There may be some who are genuinely clueless but, actually, abuse victims quite commonly tell their partners how they feel and it doesn't magically change their behaviour. Whether they are not listening, they don't care, or are genuinely incapable of comprehending that other people (or women as a class) have emotions is another question. Likely it changes depending on the individual.

Indeed, abusers are quite often acutely aware of their own feelings and will make this known which causes their victim to run around trying to placate them all the time. You can see it in the script they do when their victim reaches a potential tipping point.

Well I suppose I was wondering whether sometimes the men aren't wearing the woman down until she gives in, rather that the women feels she had to go along with it because of her conditioning and the man is unaware.

This was put to me by a Relate counsellor - not just about sex but, well everything really. I didn't accept it but never shook it off. Then reading some posts, I do wonder if there are lots of men completely unaware how the woman feels.

But yeah, I get your point re the test.

I ended up accidentally derailing another thread by mentioning this book but it's worth saying again. Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski is brilliant about sex and conditioning. I'm just reading the culture bit now.

I don't think abuse can be solved by women reacting in different ways, but certainly there is a societal/cultural aspect to abuse, it has roots in misogyny, that is why there's a clear trend that most abusers are men and most abuse victims are women. It can happen the other way around of course and within same sex relationships but when it's men abusing women, they have patriarchial and societal "support" behind them even though we wouldn't consciously see it that way.

And women are conditioned by society to turn a blind eye towards early warning signs of abuse, where really we should be weeding those relationships out early on and jumping ship. Perhaps that is what you meant? I don't think that abusers can be changed because it's not the behaviour of their victims that drives them, it's their own faulty beliefs and expectations.

There are not be.

Oh dear, this might be poorly thought out....

But there be a number of posters who have sex they don't want to be having to keep their partners happy. They seem almost bemused at why they go along with this. They don't feel coerced. They don't feel scared. Is it just another aspect of being conditioned to please rather than coerced sex or abuse as it's often labeled?

I do realise that coercion is not always obvious, especially to the person on the receiving end of the behaviour.

I don't know whether this thread is the right place for this post. I've been reading a number of threads about unenthusiastic sex. I know that isnt a great phrase but I'm trying to find something neutral. When I've been reading I keep thinking about this thread and conditioning. How much of what we do in relationships is about a desire to please, about being programmed to please, rather than "fear" of the consequences.

I wonder how many "abusive" relationships could be changed by the women changing.

Happy to repost if this is too out of sync with the rest of thread. Obviously I don't want to confuse the threads I'm talking about by posting these questions there. I know that this question could be very badly thought out.

Doing the laundry combined makes sense for the washing itself for us. So work clothes for both of us in one load, all towels in one etc. It's more DS's stuff that gets strewn tbh, but still seen as my job to clear it up.

Fortunately laundry is one of DS's favourite things to do, so he is very happy with the new state of affairs!

Ah Sparrow you've made me remember my conversation with my mother who simultaneously said that my cleaning standards weren't high enough (terrible slattern me) and that my expectations around my DP cleaning were too high!

Because apparently I should have a sparkling kitchen with floor mopped three times a week but expecting DP to wipe up crumbs from the side was taking it too far.

Oh, this thread is so recognisable! I guess recognition is the first step? Although I still really struggle with then being able to open my mouth and say "no, this isn't ok, x and y needs to happen."

I have, however, taken a few small steps. One being that laundry only gets done if it is in the basket. No more roaming the house to find random dirty washing! (You may laugh, I know it's ridiculous, 🙂 But this is a surprisingly big deal for me!)

And yes I vividly remember him gardening just after Dd1 was born. I was a big sweaty heap of boobs and nightie feeding baby thinking I would sell my own granny to dead head some roses on my own. And for him it was business as usual. Garden needs attention= off I go. In fact he probably felt righteous because he had done some work while I was just sitting there. They will never know how difficult 'just being there' can be. We later had dts and he did find out a little of the reality and actually cried!

Sounds so familiar sparrow. We have discussed it and he does get it on an intellectual level. I have told him that he needs to prepare for sick days/special assemblies/nativity plays etc as he is more flexi than me (ie he is senior and can do what he likes more or less). But he has had to learn to think about these things. Birthday party arrangements/bathroom cleaning/maintaining diary/planning holidays all pass him by. He does most of the cooking and lots of housework but loo cleaning and washing always fall to me. I have talked to him about the unspoken expectations on women but he doesn't really feel it. I think a lot of the problem has to do with the social conditioning we get as mothers. I can't imagine DH talking to his mates about the guilt he feels about not collecting the kids from school every day. It's bollocks innit!