New mothers need the whole story about AP.

Telling people co-sleeping works is helpful if they haven't tried it, definitely.

But telling people who already are co-sleeping and feeding through the night, and still getting next to no sleep, that tgis is the only way and that they just need to put up with it, is not cool.

I didn't sleep train my kids, because they have always been good sleepers. My middle kid was sleeping 5 hour stretches from birth! I lucked out.

I like to think if I was on the bones of my arse with sleep deprivation and it was affecting my ability to parent, and if my babies had been constantly grizzly and on a hair trigger due to their own lack of sleep, that I would have had the balls to use sleep training to deal with that issue.

I get infuriated when the very suggestion that it might help is castigated as being cruel.

Sleep deprivation is cruel. Yet people on here advise all the time that babies and adults who are operating on far less than optimal sleep for extended periods just accept their lot.

Even though there are methods we KNOW can work.

Why would you deny a desperate woman and her exhausted baby recourse to those methods in extremis?

Based on ideological objections?

It is bullshit.

And it is common.

And yet women who haven't slept more than two hours straight for months

I agree that sounds shit and if it is happening something needs to change.

I actually found though that when I was BF I got a lot of sleep in while the baby latched on every couple of hours. I found that other people who were completely opposed to the notion automatically presumed that if the baby was feeding I was not sleeping and that was absolutely not the case for me. Even I was really surprised how good quality sleep I got because I had FF my 2 other children and so this has not been an option and feeding them in the nighttime was a royal pain in the arse.

Sometimes here I would suggest co sleeping and BF because I found it worked well for us but that is not to say it will work for anybody else especially when often people are culturally opposed to it. I do think that cultural opposition plays its own part in difficulties associated with co sleeping. People are literally terrified of it because the risks are very much emphasised when in reality that is the practice humans were designed to do before the advent of cots/bottles. If you are nervous co sleeping then obviously that will impact sleep although again that is not the reason everyone is opposed to doing it as we are all different.

Still when someone looks for solutions to their lack of sleep I am inclined to tell them what worked for us but I don't expect them to take the advice if it is not a good fit for them.

LOL

Well I was put under quite a lot of pressure not to buy a cot ("because the baby will be in your bed anyway") and felt like my family just saw me as a giant pair of lactating breasts (every noise the baby made was met with advice to latch her on).

The fact was that I wanted a cot and wanted to learn to respond to my baby's cues myself, and that sometimes boob isn't the answer (especially if your nipples are in ribbons and both you and the baby are struggling with latch).

Honestly, the nicest and most well meaning earth mothery hippes can make you feel inadequate too.

Oh sorry, when I said that I was supposed to be talking about the people I originally mentioned. I can see how it does not look like that at all. What I meant to say was that my friends felt exactly like that, at the end of their tether, but that in their case, driving around was an 'answer' to a problem that didn't really exist (as baby was happy to be fed to sleep). I type too quickly and then forget to proof read things.

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that your friends had failed. I don't think anyone should feel like they've failed, and IMO when mothers (because it is mainly mothers) feel they have failed it's because some system or other has failed them, whether that be AP or a GF approach. When women say they feel they failed at BF, there are often other factors that led to that.

"I never heard about lungs being exercised, but I heard plenty about how babies should be in your bed and you should not expect a decent night's sleep for the first few years "

This may be where we are crossing over. In my family, it was all baby in their own room from day 1 and that you have to leave them to cry sometimes because they 'have to learn'. I was asked when I was putting DD on the bottle at 3 days old. As for bed-sharing, I was made to feel like a right idiot and endless comments about a rod for my own back. I felt really uncomfortable with it all until I read about AP and realised I could fuck the so-called rules and do what worked for me and my baby. It wasn't about AP so much as the knowledge that there was more than one way to do things.

Endless ways to judge women.

You countered my example by telling me why my friends who used cars to get their babies to sleep were failing.

My point is that if your routine isn't working, then it's more likely to be a problem with the routine than with the baby or the parent.

That's equally true if your "routine" is based on all night feeding.

And yet women who haven't slept more than two hours straight for months are regularly told on here that it is just something they have to endure, and that taking steps to change the situation is cruel and unnatural.

Despite the fact that we kniw it is bad for babies and for adults to have so little sleep, it is standard advice on MN that this is entirely normal and just something to be accepted.

And that is harmful, anti-woman bullshit.

I think because of my family, I hear the previous generation hung up on their own prejudice when I read stuff like that.

I never heard about lungs being exercised, but I heard plenty about how babies should be in your bed and you should not expect a decent night's sleep for the first few years

And how men's feelings on what was happenimg in their beds were irrelevant.

I'm reacting against what I consider to have been poor advice from my elders.

Not all of it was poor. But some of it really was.

Ohh italic fail. Definitely sleep deprived then.

"Not all babies fall off happily to sleep when you feed and/or cuddle them."

I never said they did.

"Some babies genuinely struggle to settle at all. "

I know, I've met babies like that. I live with a toddler who still struggles to get to sleep at night. For him, boobs help. Please note that I am not saying that all babies must be fed to sleep.

"Presuming that the parents of those babies are stupid/routine obsessed/rigidly sticking to a book/not cuddling their babies enough is incredibly unfair."

I never presumed any of those things about all parents of all those babies. I mentioned some specific families who themselves felt they were too routine focused. Presuming that I think that based on one sentence is incredibly unfair.

"It's as blinkered and patronising as saying "all he needs is a strict bedtime and to exercise his lungs"."

I agree it would have been.

"My bf had truly, truly horrendous sleepers. She co-slept, she cuddled all night, but still THEY DID NOT SLEEP."

I haven't suggested anyone continuing to do something that isn't working for them.

"Feeding to sleep was my magic trick - no driving around, no midnight walks around the block, no pacing the room.

^Just lovely dozing off on the boob. Worked every time.

Because I was lucky and I never had to try a million other ways to get them to sleep."

YY, it did for my DD. Mainly because as a newborn she'd only feed for 5-10 minutes before falling asleep. It was amazing. Then DS turned up and would only boob to sleep at night, not for nap times. Thank fuck for those night times though!

^"Babies do need to sleep, ideally a lot. If they won't, that is not great for anyone.

But nor is it an easy problem to solve (and I do believe it is a problem) if your baby doesn't sleep easily."^

I agree. My point is that if your routine isn't working, then it's more likely to be a problem with the routine than with the baby or the parent.

"In the end my bf tried something completely mad that nobody (including her) thought would work, and she pretty much quadrupled night time sleep overnight. (It did not involve any crying) (or cuddling).

The difference in both parents and children was enormous."^

They changed something they were doing that wasn't working for them, and then everyone slept better. That's pretty much all I'm trying to suggest.

"There is no one true way when it comes to sleep."

Again, never said there was.

"There is good luck and bad luck."

Yes.

"If you have never considered taking your car out at 4am to settle a baby who can't sleep, then you don't get to suggest obvious solutions like feeding or cuddling. Most people have already tried those things before they opt for aimless driving."

I didn't suggest those things to those particular parents, as those were the things they were trying to avoid.

Anyway, as an AP mother I'm far too sleep deprived and stressed to possibly type any more, I should probably go for a lie down

We know that. RTFT.

Attachment parenting is bullshit.

You do not need to be attached to your baby all day and night. Babies will not develop an attachment disorder by having a routine.

Babies who are in danger of developing an attachment disorder are those who are severely neglected. The babies that get taken into care and then adopted. Then you would need to establish an attachment to that baby/child but that wouldn't mean bf, no routine, everything "natural" and all that rubbish.

Attachment parenting is another way for mothers to feel inadequate and beat themselves up with. It's also damaging as it makes mothers feel guilty and stuck with a baby attached all the time. I also think it can damage a marriage.

Because they were told that they shouldn't let their baby fall asleep feeding, or by cuddling.

No.

Not all babies fall off happily to sleep when you feed and/or cuddle them.

Some babies genuinely struggle to settle at all.

Presuming that the parents of those babies are stupid/routine obsessed/rigidly sticking to a book/not cuddling their babies enough is incredibly unfair.

It's as blinkered and patronising as saying "all he needs is a strict bedtime and to exercise his lungs".

My bf had truly, truly horrendous sleepers. She co-slept, she cuddled all night, but still THEY DID NOT SLEEP.

Feeding to sleep was my magic trick - no driving around, no midnight walks around the block, no pacing the room.

Just lovely dozing off on the boob. Worked every time.

Because I was lucky and I never had to try a million other ways to get them to sleep.

Babies do need to sleep, ideally a lot. If they won't, that is not great for anyone.

But nor is it an easy problem to solve (and I do believe it is a problem) if your baby doesn't sleep easily.

In the end my bf tried something completely mad that nobody (including her) thought would work, and she pretty much quadrupled night time sleep overnight. (It did not involve any crying) (or cuddling).

The difference in both parents and children was enormous.

There is no one true way when it comes to sleep.

There is good luck and bad luck.

If you have never considered taking your car out at 4am to settle a baby who can't sleep, then you don't get to suggest obvious solutions like feeding or cuddling. Most people have already tried those things before they opt for aimless driving.

YY hubbles!

I think a bad sleeper will be a bad sleeper no matter where they sleep.

Yes! Ours is. I am too. So is my mum. His dad is a great sleeper. My dad has slept through an earthquake as well as a major explosion by the house.

Agree about screen time too. It's a good example. Like play pens, bouncers etc, a few cartoon nursery rhymes for fifteen minutes while you empty the dishwasher/have a cup of tea or just sit and regroup to save your sanity is not harmful. It's a tool.
Dumping a kid in front of the telly for hours isn't a great idea, but berating women for needing two minutes to Get Shit Done is anti feminist.

We cannot win can we? If we work we are neglectful - have you ever heard anyone use the phrase 'working dads'? Nope. Me neither. Never heard an man asked if he will be cutting down his hours once the baby is here either.
If we sahm we are lazy gold diggers. If we sleep train we are tyrants. If we don't we are too soft. It just never stops and it's for everything. Every choice we make is public property. It's exhausting and I'm absolutely fucking sick of it.

"The parents I knew who were driving their children around to get them to go to sleep were the ones pretty near the end of their tether and most sleep deprived."

Exactly! Because they were told that they shouldn't let their baby fall asleep feeding, or by cuddling. That they had to go to sleep by themselves. That when baby was falling asleep feeding, they felt they had to put baby in the cot and when that didn't work, they resorted to the car.

When this thread starts by declaring that all AP mothers are stressed and sleep deprived, I don't think it's nasty to give an example of a case where the opposite was true.

If it makes you feel better, they didn't do the driving thing for very long. They relaxed their routine and everyone was happier and slept better. But the book still said they were doing it wrong. So they got rid of the book.

Here is a good citation
Breastfeeding parents get 45 minutes more sleep a night.
^www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17700096^

Well, at three months. We might see quite different results if we looked at the amount of sleep breastfeeding mothers of babies less than a couple of weeks old are getting compared to formula feeding mothers, particularly given that the latter will have the option of passing on feeding duties entirely. For some reason, the comparison when the baby is very young doesn't seem quite as attractive a topic for research.

With that said, I don't think the long term sleep deprivation comments are particularly helpful. That has no doubt happened to some individuals but there's no evidence it's more likely. Actually I don't think the term 'AP' particularly is helpful either. It includes so many practices, particularly if you also add the things that aren't AP but are often associated with AP and wrongly assumed, sometimes by AP advocates themselves, to be part of it (BLW, extended rear facing etc). Surely a majority of mothers have done at least one of wanted an unmedicated vaginal delivery if not had one, breastfed for a while, coslept, used a sling, not had much of a routine, fed on cue, not left baby to cry where possible and tried to use at least some 'gentle parenting' methods (loaded term but I don't know what else to use here). I don't consider myself AP but I tick several of those boxes. It just seems too broad to be helpful.

Oh, and, of course, I used disposable nappies!

OP, I had a baby who cried all the time. I tried everything. I was lazy. I vaccinated my kids, even for chickenpox! I couldn't be arsed to spend two weeks tending to a whiny toddler. I exclusively breast fed because I didn't want to faff around with sterilising bottles. I never bought or made baby food, but just put whatever I was eating in a little hand grinder. I was cavalier about salt and sugar. I put the first baby in a sling because she liked it and it stopped her from crying. My second liked the pr and that was good too. I coslept with both babies because I got much more sleep myself. The fact that it may have curtailed my sex drive was irrelevant to me, and my husband wasn't a selfish jerk. Cosleeping was really subversive at the time too. The NHS basically told you that your baby would die of SIDS and it would be your fault.

I suspect that most parents who coslept do it for their own convenience.

Now the hysteria over "screen time" looks like a genuine feminist issue to me. The minute a woman can eat a meal in peace or get her hair done without drama the whole western world seems to go into a moral panic. I let both my kids watch CBeebies quite a bit because it was good for my mental health.

Having done the full AP thing with one child and the own-bedroom/formula/cc thing with another child, I feel I can confidently say that having children leads to poor quality sleep.

I think trying to super-impose any parenting style on what you would naturally do as a parent is a health risk. Obsessing over having baby 'settled to sleep at 7pm and never allowing baby in your bed could be as unnatural and exhausting as feeling your baby must never be out of the maternal cocoon of your arms.

What would be helpful is, when choosing which bits of parenting guidance to follow, parents had enough confidence and self-knowledge to say 'That looks ideal for baby but I would never cope, so we need to try something else.'

"They were the ones driving round for 45 minutes 3 times a day to try and get their baby to sleep.

Kind of proving your nasty point with that."

That's not nasty. It's just pointing out that getting too one track minded about a routine can make you do things like this- because the book tells you that your baby has to be asleep for X minutes at Y time and you feel as if you're failing if they aren't.

They were the ones driving round for 45 minutes 3 times a day to try and get their baby to sleep.

Kind of proving your nasty point with that.

The parents I knew who were drivibg their children around to get them to go to sleep were the ones pretty near the end of their tether and most sleep deprived.

I never sought to blame it on their parenting choices.

I have always felt lucky not to have ever found myself takung out the car to get an hour's break or to get an exhausted baby to drop off.

Didn't it occur to you that their "focus" on routine came from their knowkedge of what their vaby needed?

Or us that something you can only have if your baby sleeps at different times each day?

This is just another 'AP mothers are mean and nasty' thread.

I could repeat myself from the other thread and say how we ended up BF and co-sleeping and not spoon feeding but what's the point when I'll just get lumped in with all those other AP mothers 'being disingenous'.

The most stressed mums in our baby group were the routine focused ones. They were the ones driving round for 45 minutes 3 times a day to try and get their baby to sleep.

I think a bad sleeper will be a bad sleeper no matter where they sleep. Sometimes it can be made slightly better by moving where they sleep, whether that be into or out of the parent's bed. But some adults are light sleepers whereas I could sleep through most things.

But I find that it's the routine touting experts who are the ones insisting that their particular method will work for all babies as long as you follow The Rules. AP says feed your baby when they're hungry not because it's 6:45pm.

But AP can mean routine, if that's what mother and baby are happy with. But it's about finding your own routine rather than trying to impose one on both your lives. It wouldn't have worked for me but I know it has for others. Because everyone's different.

I think there are an awful lot of people who think their way is the right way.

In the real world, how many people think their way is the only way? My circle of friends (which varies from AP to routine based) would probably all admit that it's driven by a mixture of our personalities as parents and the personalities of our children. My co-sleeping would drive at least one of my routine based friends nuts, because she (not the children) likes routine and organisation in all aspects of her life; she lent me GF while I was pregnant, I read it, handed it back saying politely "I've got some ideas from this" while privately thinking "Oh god no, that is so not me." My DC was one who would drop of to sleep anywhere (once the initial clingy first 6 months was over - he once memorably fell asleep over my shoulder in the checkout queue in Sainsbury's and I had to lie him on the floor while I packed my shopping); another friend had one where any deviation from routine would leave him unsettled for days (this was entirely driven by his personality, not his parents). I have friends with children somewhere on the AS - again, a whole different set of parenting skills are needed. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who takes any view other than "shrug, more than one way to skin a cat..."

(My parenting is probably best described as "slack" with appropriation of whatever method from whatever source seems to work at the time - hence I coslept purely in order to get a decent night's sleep, and potty trained by bribing with chocolate buttons - which pretty much every parenting guru seems to think is "a bad thing", but did restrict daytime naps in order to manipulate night time sleeping to my advantage...)

As long as people believe that their way of parenting is the "natural" one, we are miles off not putting pressure on women to things our way.

Even the phrase "baby led" is full of implied superiority.

"I'm doing what my baby wants. You are doing what you want."

BLW (which I mostly did) as a movement is all about a rejection of "unnatural" utensils.

So we should bash AP parents and label them as haggard and sexless to help them understand AP is bad for them?

I never read anything about parenting prior to having my son, but looking back I would probably have fallen into the AP category. I just followed my instincts and did whatever I could to keep my baby happy while staying sane. That included co-sleeping and wearing a sling when it worked for us.

I don't think we should be attacking any parenting styles. Babies are hard and we should be supporting mothers to trust their instincts, whether they feel they need a routine or to be completely baby-led, and helping them figure it out when it's not working.