Breastfeeding and attachment parenting - your thoughts

Because the cancer charity put it's logo on each tin of formula. Which endorses. The brand is a new one to Australia and is using the endorsement to get round manufacturing advertisement rules. Australia has a very lax approach to formula advertising. It can be discounted for example or advertised by supermarkets and you receive points on it.

(Not paid here on MN. I mean, this is what I mean about evidence.)

ICJump

Are you able to explain what "could" means in this context, and how the figure of 20,000 was arrived at?

(I am paid to do this, and am having trouble sleeping, so you would be doing me a favour.)

Why is supporting the charity undermining breast-feeding?

I'm not following your logic at all. The company is giving money to the charity.

What do you mean by a formula promotion? Maybe Australian law is different but formula can't be promoted for babies under 6 months. No 3 for 2 deals or offerd and purchases are not eligible for Boots or other loyalty cards.

I guess where I'm coming form is that breastfeeding support isn't always on an individual level. Breastfeeding support comes in the form of advocacy. For example a Australian based breast cancer charity recently paired itself with a formula manufacture. My self and many other breastfeeding supporters asked them to end the partnership because breastfeeding to near universal levels could prevent 20000 deaths a year from breast cancer. Many women felt that our advocacy was anti women, that we were shaming women for using formula. This was not the case. We were however trying to address the issue of of a formula promotion undermining breastfeeding and therefore increasing risks of breast cancer.

Totally agree with fusion

Surely we should all be helping each other. Non-judgemental tips are what mothers (and fathers too) need. That's why I find labelling so unhelpful. All it does is create 'otherness'.

I would say the line between bfing support being supportive and feminist an unsupportive and anti-feminist is pretty simple.

When it supports the woman's desires and choices and enables her to do what she wants to do and is important for her as a mother, it is feminist. When it in any way intentionally coerces or shames the mother for her choices it is anti-feminist.

I have to admit I'm really surprised by 4 and 5 in that list. I thought that feminism was about equality, how can it be if we diminish fathers' roles to such an extent? How can I expect my children's' father to play an equal role in raising them if feminism says he's no more important than extended family?
Sorry I know I haven't joined the debate til now although I have been reading it!

Agree with dozer on point five. Of course a family unit doesn't 'have' to have a man. But if it does, and that father is engaged and parenting equally then it's not unreasonable to assume in that individual family unit that they are more important than extended family. Again, it's the 'should' that makes the tyranny.

I've been speaking to my mother on the BF vs ff issue. When she had me in the late 70s there was huge pressure to ff. Now she's seen me under pressure to BF and struggle. It seems there's always a stick to beat women with isn't there? Always a way we 'should' behave. Plus ça change.

I must have a fuck off face - I didn't get any pressure (or conversely, help) with BF my 3 year old - I had some with my 6 year old (in another country - not experts, but midwives who had some helpful ideas, and the occasional less helpful )

I agree with Almond for a pure, feminist theory view point.

Thinking about it, I wonder if some people are forceful about AP (or any other particular scheme) because that gives them a firm answer when any other advice comes their way. I'm generally fairly immune to it, but it can be wearing, especially with your first newborn.

I should also say that while I was pregnant with DTs, not one person IRL spoke positively to me about BFing twins, or about parenting twins in general.
There was a lot of scaremongering and a general assumption that it wasn't possible to parent twins in any other way than by being routine-based, entirely parent-led.

Of course a family unit need not always include a father, or co-parent if the mother's partner is a woman, but their role is IMO more important than extended family and random people. Hence why, for example, the legal system includes provisions for financial support and for DC to have contact with both parents. I don't see this as inconsistent with womens/mothers' rights (or the wellbeing of DC).

My twins are 16 months and I had pressure from all corners - HCPs, family and friends to FF, to mix feed or to express.

Dozer, do you want to expand on that?

Are you saying that you believe a mother with a baby in a basic family unit should always also include a man?

Or are you saying such a belief is not damaging to women's rights?

My DD is 18m old cosmic. So not in the last year but not far off

Just a thought- how many of those who felt pressured to formula feed had children in the last year? My DD is six months old and the pressure to continue to EBF has been enormous. It seems like this attitude is a backlash against the pushing of FF in previous generations.

The facts should speak for themselves without the rhetoric. People just need the information to make the decision.

I heard an interview with a well known pediatrician a while ago. He basically said that if you're the kind of parent who buys parenting books then you probably don't need them. The people who do need them don't bother to get parenting tips.

I agree with the people who said the issue is when could becomes should and may becomes must.

I disagree with some of it, eg 4 and 5.

IMO is not more or less feminist to SaH or WoH (part or full time) when you have a baby or young DC.

Yes almond. I agree with everything you said.

53, thanks for answering my question. It was really helpful.

It sounds like AP is descended from the Continuum Concept, which was popular when my kids were small. It now being advanced by a born again Christian may well be a response to many born again Christians being given authoritarian child care advice, and this more child centred approach being an alternative to that.

As much as we tell people to trust their instincts, often when women are pregnant or have a baby, they do want some kind of advice and explanation as to how to care for a child.

I also find Outsself's posts helpful in articulating my feelings on this.

Different styles of child rearing are always going to arouse strong feelings. The difference between how these issues were discussed twenty years again and the way they are discussed now seems to be in the promotion of equal parenting as some kind of moral good, and the spin put on this that it is some kind of feminist goal.

So, some stuff about feminism and 'equal parenting,'

1. Given that pregnancy has many physical and psychological risks, feminists recognise that women in the UK almost always only have a baby because they want to be involved in the care of their baby and want the baby to live with them.
2. Feminists (and universal human rights) recognise the special status of mothers, and the strong feelings mothers have for their babies.
3. It's an abuse of human rights to separate a mother from her baby without very good reason to fear for the child's safety. Adoption is a last resort.
4. The assumption that the basic family unit that a woman should raise her baby within involves the baby's father or any other man is damaging to women's rights.
5. The assumption that a father should be more important in the life of that mother and baby than grandparents, uncles, aunts, friends and partners is not a feminist position.
6. The assumption that a mother should share a bed with a sexual partner as a duty is not a feminist position.
7. Mothers' parenting decisions do not make them morally responsible for how much care or the manner of care fathers' provide. Making fatherslook after children is not another job mothers have to do or should be judged for failing to do.
8. It isn't more feminist to live with a father who does fifty percent of the childcare than to make any other arrangement.

I suspect that AP's popularity lies in part in quite a deep fear many women have about how society not only views caring in general, but the trivialisation of pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. and women's strong feelings about their babies.

AP no doubt has a variety of issues, but it's also pushing against a much stronger social force to devalue motherhood, caring, relationships and human contact and replace it with paid employment as the pinnacle of what a human being is.

Feminism is about the human rights of women.

erinaceus that would be great. The chapter is probably better as as I'm in Oz and the postage would cost a bomb. I'll PM you.

awfulpersonme But it's not as simple as respecting choices. Our choices aren't made in a vacuum. Our choices are made in a society that undervalues women, it undervalues what we do and treats the functions of our bodies as disgusting. If we act like feeding like feeding is just a simple choice we ignore all sorts of contributing factors

The whole thing is a minefield!

It's interesting how different narratives of what motherhood should be are used us a stick to beat women with. From my own experience, I definitely felt more pressure the other way- breastfeeding was fine up until a certain point and then it became 'are you still feeding her' or 'you've only just fed her- why is she feeding again? Maybe you need to give her a bottle...'.
Then there was the pressure to 'get back to normal/work' as quickly as possible. I was made to feel that there was something strange about wanting to hold my baby, keep her close while sleeping and not wanting to be apart for too long. The relief I felt when reading about the breastfeeding dyad and how symbiotic that relationship can be was immense. My feelings were a perfectly normal biological response. I wasn't a freak for not feeling a desire to go on a 'girls' night out'.

I think there is a general dismissal of women's feelings as not that important or something that needs to be 'managed' to something more acceptable. The transition to motherhood is tough - suddenly a whole other raft of expectations get dumped on you. It can feel very lonely when you're swimming against the current.

ICJump

Yes. I know. If you would like some interesting reading on this topic, I have a book about it, Feminist Perspecitives on Science, or I can send you a book chapter from a different book which covers much of the same material.