Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

bitof association means exactly that boys watching porn are more likely to abuse women, in the same way men that drink are more likely to hit their wives. Causation is more difficult (ie did the porn cause the boy to be violent, did the alcohol cause the man to hit his wife?). Especially in a society where everyone watches porn.
My point was there is as much (if not more) science to support the idea porn contributes to violence as that it doesn't. And to analyse and interpretty that needs experts, not people who don't understand how to interpret research ripping studies to support their position off the Internet.
Incidentally this report poses your very question and links some interesting studies

www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/20/goldsmith.pdf (pdf link)

There is also this
cyber.harvard.edu/vaw02/mod2-6.htm

This

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862768

Cba to Google more but please stop holding up your studies as definitive evidence porn is fine. It really isn't.

Buffy As politely as possible, I really don't need your validation about anything as I don't actually know anything about you.

I am however intrigued by the issues this thread has raised. I am surprised and a bit shocked at some of the information I have found out. I enjoy the argument and the intellectual engagement. I spend a lot of my working life trying not to snigger as the lads swap knob gags.

Yes Smalldyke and felsa "small to moderate associations". What is not evidenced is a clear cut causal link. It has been implied repeatedly on this thread that porn causes (all?? Most?) users to abuse women.

Porn plays a similar role to alcohol. Alcohol (and porn) are associated with domestic violence but they do not cause it. A teenage boy who uses porn is not more likely to abuse someone than a boy who does not use porn. It is his preexisting views that hold most sway.

And that I think is the key, it is the views formed before boys encounter porn that are really important. By focusing on porn, which like alcohol, can be used responsibly we are ignoring where the real damage is being done.

DadWasHere violent crime is decreasing across the Western world which is why any act of domestic violence stands out so much. Greater reporting of incidences of sexual harassment/assault does seem to be happening but the numbers are still very worrying. Why is it still happening?

SomeDyke "The problem is how men view women and how men and women view sex. That isn't just spread by pornography, but by the general culture." Exactly.

I think the emphasis on porn is not helpful. It appeases the Mail readers but does nothing to tackle the real issues. The way we are socialising our young men before pubity is where the real issues are. Porn scares make easy headlines, everyone can agree. More nuanced stories about different approaches to educating boys are dismissed as lefty nonsense.

Actually, the paper referred to in that Psychology Today article say:

"This study suggests that, when controlling for important other factors, SEM consumption influences sexual behaviors. The small to moderate associations that emerged between SEM consumption and sexual behavior after controlling for other variables suggest that SEM is just one factor among many that may influence youth sexual behaviors."

The problem is how men view women and how men and women view sex. That isn't just spread by pornography, but by the general culture.

What is warped is our whole culture, and porn is part of that. It's not just the ole 'porn creates rapists' scare-mongering, just that porn is part of what creates ordinary everyday boys and blokes, many of whom have a fairly sick view of how they are supposed to relate to girls and women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2731528-Guest-post-Violence-against-women-and-girls-is-rising-so-why-isnt-SRE-compulsory

"As a broad idea I felt that if domestic violence was increasing, domestic violence deaths would also increase....I dont know what has happened in the UK but in Australia reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly, but deaths have gone down. "

Corpses or it didn't happen?

Remember when DadWasYoung and would go to school where he would see photographs of girls that schoolmates had raped at a recent party being shared in homeroom? That wasn't a common part of my 1980s childhood, but pish posh that and let's call it a reporting issue, boys were taking and sharing rape photos all along and always have been.

Good thing Rehtaeh Parsons killed herself so her corpse counts. Despite photographic evidence and witnesses, her rapists got off scott free.

"A Nova Scotia man who texted a photo that showed him penetrating a 15-year-old girl and flashing a thumbs-up while she vomited won't see the inside of a jail anytime soon. Instead, today a judge sentenced the man to 12 months probation."

www.vice.com/en_ca/read/no-jail-time-for-man-who-texted-photo-of-himself-penetrating-rehtaeh-parsons-while-she-vomited-273

Rapists have always photographed their rapes, been CONVICTED, and then been set free. What sexual and violent dysfunction? I don't see any sexual and violent dysfunction.

I am likely not far off the age of your daughters and I see and read of a good deal of "sexual and violent dysfunction in western societies"

Perhaps it is easier for you not to see it

Honestly bitof I just did some googling and found all sorts of studies about associations between porn and violence.

Widespread access to the internet gave birth to the ability of young males to access extreme porn and violence, to seek it out in whatever form and quantity their young hearts could hope to wish for, acts so bizarre and deprave they are beyond what most adult minds could dream up. Anyone ever hear of mummification porn?

Free, easy and all but invisible access to a veritable cornucopia of porn without parallel in human history, beyond the jump of erotica from oil paintings and lithographs to photography. This was all delivered to them in a very short historical time-frame, its growth allowed and traceable via the uptake of the internet within society itself.

Those male masturbatory pioneers of the new porn era were children when my daughters were children. My daughters are now both adults. I ask, in all seriousness, where is the massive sexual and violent dysfunction of western societies this should have, to my mind, logically created and manifested by now?

I went looking for facts about this myself, but I ran into seeming problems of societal definitions and changing perceptions of domestic violence, evolving through time. As a broad idea I felt that if domestic violence was increasing, domestic violence deaths would also increase.

I dont know what has happened in the UK but in Australia reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly, but deaths have gone down. This seems illogical to me, there is no 'amazing medical care' that has surfaced that would cause a drop in fatalities. To my mind it suggests more common reporting of violent incidents, or greater sensitivity by individuals classifying it as such.

What has statistically happened in the UK over the last 10 year time-frame?

Honestly bitof I just did some googling and found all sorts of studies about associations between porn and violence. It's not MP's going blah blah blah. My phone isn't letting me c&p links

"No one on this thread has said or implied " that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women"."

The article you linked to implied that. Its logical conclusion was that there has to be a group of women available for men to wank over in order to protect the rest of womenkind from men assaulting them. It was a (less than) veiled threat - deny men porn and they will retaliate and you may be the victim

"But, porn exposure in kids doesn’t have a life-altering, warping effect on children. In fact, recent research in the Netherlands showed that exposure to pornography explained less than 4% of the variance in adolescents behavior. This means that 96% of the reasons why these kids do the things they do have NOTHING to do with the fact that they saw pornography. But, from the hyperbole and panic that we all hear on a regular basis, we are paying a lot more attention to porn than it deserves."

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201402/common-sense-about-the-effects-pornography

SomeDyke, if it is so clear cut where is the evidence? Why is this clear evidence not cited by the parliamentary committee?

The studies I have cited show that porn does not change preexisting beliefs. Violent men like violent porn.

Vestal - the patriarchy - indeed, but that has always existed. Why is there a significant increase in assaults now? More reporting? Or more actual attacks?

In every other area, the use of propaganda and the ability to affect peoples perceptions towards a group by the use of such material is accepted. So, why should pornography magically be exempt from this effect?

Instead, pornography is the most effective form of propaganda going, in that not only does it teach and reinforce the behaviours and attitudes depicted, but you get an orgasm too!

Why do young boys - before they encounter porn - hold this belief?

Short answer: Because patriarchy.

Long answer: Because they are brought up on a diet of books with only male heroes, never asked to have any empathy for girls (yes, there are parents who make sure their precious boys don't have to read female authors, that's why it's J.K. Rowling instead of Joanne Rowling), watch men treat women like objects in everyday life, watch TV (not porn, just regular TV), watch advertisements where women are portrayed as objects or idiots ...

Sexism is everywhere.

That doesn't mean that porn is harmless or that it should be tolerated.

Fallible not infallible

HapShawl, I did indeed point out that the science was infallible to draw attention to the fact the NS piece was rhetoric. The only facts concerned the rise of assaults. The link to porn has no basis in fact.

No one on this thread has said or implied " that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women".

Back to the facts, having done a little bit of research it seems that porn DOES confirm the views of some users towards women but the crucial message is that these users, already believed that. Users who had supportive views on women did not change their point of view.

Somone predisposed to be violent to women chooses to watch violent porn. The same is true with child abusers etc. Users who don't already think like this do not change their views.

Which brings us to the truly disturbing 'wider question' if porn confirms the opinions of those predisposed to be violent how did this belief that women can be sexually assaulted come about?

Blaming porn for this rise in assaults is not proven. It is an easy position to take. You might say it is a comfort zone.

Why do young boys - before they encounter porn - hold this belief?

MPs saying "blah blah porn blah blah sex education" is totally and utterly failing to ask why as are society do our young men feel this is OK?

Porn is a sloppy, knee jerk response with little evidence to back it up, like blaming violent video games for violent crime. MPs throw the bone to the Mail readers and everyone is happy. But nothing is done.

If people watching "Korean Slut Anal Gangbang" actually reduced racism and sexism against Asians and women then we would have a moral obligation to broadcast such imagery on primetime television nightly so everyone can become less racist and less sexist people.

We could use child porn to let potential child rapists wank the will to rape kids out of their system in a safe(r) way. I'm not saying children getting raped on film is good, but hey, if the harm has already been done then we should use those recordings to enact the greater social good.

Why oh why has no one implemented this simple and genius "watch more movies" solution to preventing violent crimes before???

Which brings us back to glosswitch's entirely valid opinion that it's all about protecting men's orgasms at all costs

Nice gloss over the problematic elements of that article with "not infallible" - not least the fact that this "scientific" research fails to acknowledge the fact that there are real people working in porn, real humans

I'm concerned that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women. As though the women in porn should be some sort of sacrificial lambs for the good of other women

It's an absolutely disgusting POV, like that argument that we need prostitution to stop men raping. The implication that there needs to be a group of women whose bodies are permanently accessible to men to protect all other women

Interesting opinion piece based on a parliamentary report.

Here is another article that references some scientific research.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

Clearly not infallible but with some scientific research at least.

Having looked into this recently I am becoming concerned that assaults on women are blamed on pornography in a knee jerk way with little actual research to prove it. IF this is the case then we are failing to look at the actual reasons the attacks continue by focusing on porn usage.
There are wider questions to answer that aren't even being asked.

Amazing article xeno thanks for sharing

Article by Glosswitch.

But yeah, there's no harm to porn at all.

My opinions are not fixed I don't think that is a weakness. I think some of us are shifting and making accommodations we are not totally comfortable with. And that makes me proud. I would not presume to talk for individuals. I could be wrong.

I did my porn research several years ago and stayed in my niche. This thread had forced me outside and I am thrilled. Ethical porn is moving on nicely.

"Can ethical porn exist? There’s really no reason why it couldn’t, as long as the people involved have agency and a voice. I can recognize that the industry as a whole fails in that regard more often than it succeeds, but I do not agree that it is simply because of filming sex acts. I believe quite strongly that it is because of the combination of patriarchy, capitalism, and shame/ignorance around sexuality, both within and around the porn industry. The best way to challenge that is not, in my opinion, through censorship and abolitionism but through increased awareness of a more positive, successful, enjoyable way to create this content."

www.huffingtonpost.com/kitty-stryker/principled-pornography-ho_b_1435614.html

I had hoped for incremental moves but there are articles in GQ about ethical porn a man has written a book telling men how to source ethical porn. Men are discussing ethical porn! The battle is not won. Porn is not feminist but enough people discussing ethical porn has forced into onto the agenda. It has changed the working environment for some women.

Yes body discipline is still an issue, yes society shapes our expectations, yes women are still oppressed. But in terms of pornography women are not being dismissed (totally) voices are being raised.

The women in the porn industry are finding a voice. Do I always agree with the voice? No. But I will not dismiss it and I am glad I can hear it.

I am confounded. I thought amateur porn would be more ethical but I couldn't be more wrong. Amateur porn reflects more stereotypes and it is professional sites that are shifting the bar.

Can we move the discussion further forward?

Buffy I am a bit compulsive obsessive, obviously

Matilda with you 100% on abortion