Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

"but i think to label all types of porn with the same brush is just another thing that is feeding into these strange views we allow to be upheld about passive female sexuality."

So if women make and control some pornography they can start to fight the idea that sex is a 'bad' thing and only men enjoy it. Perhaps women could become empowered and start making demands?

No one is saying ban Porn, I think? We are discussing whether Porn can ever be truly feminist. (Apple for caps, I added porn to my dictionary after the pork thing and its upset Ip my autocorrect!)

Id never seen any pornography until i was an adult but let me tell you that i got pressured into doing loads of stuff i wasnt comfortable with as a teenage girl and so did 99% of my female friends. It has more to do with societies attitudes to male and female sexuality than it does with anything else. It has more to do with not being taught about your own sexuality being afraid of it and unable to express clearly what you do and dont want to happen. It has to do with the pervasive view that boys will be boys and sexually aggressive to some degree and girls will be passive and want to please. This is not ingrained in children through porn it is just ingrained in them through day to day life, through advertising, on tv, even in the way they are taught in school. This attitude is everywhere and i honestly think these calls to ban porn because it is harmful to young girls only adds to this, by assuming that women have no agency or sexuality and are coerced into everything sexual that they do. Of course im not denying that in some porn the people involved arent totally doing it of their own free will... but i think to label all types of porn with the same brush is just another thing that is feeding into these strange views we allow to be upheld about passive female sexuality.

thats not the fault of pornography. That is like blaming violent films for violence. The problem is that somewhere along the line these girls arent receiving good enough sex education early enough and neither are the boys. Ive watched porn and so has my partner and yet i dont feel like i HAVE to have anal sex all the time or any such nonsense. Porn has been around since the dawn of time and always will be. Theres obviously a wider discussion that needs to be had about sex and our attitudes to sex. Just like any other type of film or art form its a reflection of the attitudes of society it isnt in itself causing the problems.

What about the fact so many young girls are pressured into harmful or not pleasurable for them activities like anal, face jizzing or BDSM, hedgehog? Is that ok with you?

well i often comment on stuff like this. I dont think porn is inherently wrong no. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with consenting adults making films of themselves and sharing it with other consenting adults if thats what everyone involved wants. Of course the problems arise when theres suspicions about consent. But porn in itself is not inherently wrong in my view. There are many porn films made professionally where people arent being exploited. For example those films like All About Anna and Pink Prison. Im abog fan of the feminist porn actress Ovidie as well i think shes mint!

Porn not pork obvs

Well yes bit of. Nothing to argue about there. It would be nice though, if ourr teens weren't exposed to this misogynistic bollocks so that wasn't necessary.
You came on to say porn could be a feminist choice. And yet you haven't illustrated any circumstances where this is the case. Using pork to educate children why pork is bad isn't feminist.
No one is talking frigid/slut. You are projecting. I did say you're over invested and I stand by that. Because your POV doesn't seem defensible so I think it must be based on the fact thatbelieving porn is ok is really important to you.

I could film myself punching you in the face to teach others how it's wrong to punch people in the face, but I would never do that and most people would reject such a twisted exercise in the name of "education".

Felas - she said I had a choice. That is not the choice we are presented with we do not get to choose. We have to live in this world.

I will say it again slowly.
The whole point of deconstructing mainstream porn is to show it is not real. Big sigh, deep breath. You use mainstream porn to educate about how it is wrong.

Are those breasts real? Would that happen in real life? Is she enjoying that? Did she agree to that? And when you have shown the issues you discuss it. Self fucking evidently. When given these analytical tools young people can make their own decisions.

Most teens have seen porn = fact
You are entirely correct that is not how they should learn but in the actual world we are actually living in most teens learn through porn. So we need to engage with reality.

I am deeply pained you are making this personal and I am trying really hard not to join in the "your frigid" no "your a slut" sensationalism. We all feminists and grown ups.

Really bit of? Buffys second statement is exactly the world we live in. Most porn is violent, harmful or abusive to women. For all the reasons discussed in this thread.

As for educating, surely the best way for young people to learn about sex is in the context of a mutually respectful relationship, backed up by support from adults who are open to discussing any concerns (hopefully parents). Not by watching strangers perform acts that aren't realistic or satisfying to lots of people.

Btw I'm not asking about personal habits. Just curious why you are so wedded to porn as a positive force. None of your arguments to date hold water. But of course its up to you if you aren't comfortable sharing.

If I lived in that world choice a = no porn.
But I don't live in that world and neither do you.

So given the world we live in how do we help educate our young people?

However, for the sake of full disclosure a tiny bit of feminist porn would be nice

Yes that's right if you tell them it's bad they believe you. That's how education works. Good grief (face palm)

We all agree mainstream porn is not good for anyone. I not saying porn is good - I will say it again slowly - most mainstream porn is harmful but some ferminist porn can be positive.

My big issue with porn is not my own habits but the fact that it is mainstream. We can argue it is evil and then stand wrapped in our moral superiority while life happens around us.

Teens use porn = fact

"The question of educating young people and porn is a question you have created by conflating the issue of porn and education". Surely if we all care about anything it's marking sure young people make good choices??? If we want to stop young women being forced to have anal sex because of porn we have to educate people??

We can deal with the facts and confront the issues or pretend saying it is all too, too horrible make it go away?

Felas "what do you get out of it " can we leave my personal habits out of it and focus on the discussion.

Usually when a poster puts as much effort as you are doing in to trying to look for the good in porn they tend to be a male consumer of porn.

And the question remains how would you educate young people?

Not really. The question of educating young people and porn is a question you have created by conflating the issue of porn and education. I was willing to not dismiss the idea completely out of hand - hence my suggestion of very strictly controlled filming of this is what sex looks like.

Young people can be educated about the mechanical, physical, emotional and indeed political aspects of human sexuality without the need to resort to porn. So far as porn, it's probably enough to tell them it is at best unrealistic and at worst involves, coercion, pain, degradation and organised crime.

"the drama queenery about how my posts are bullying and oppressive" - was I talking about you? If you want it own it.

"You won't have it unless we admit porn is great." The whole point of deconstructing text is to prove it is to question it. The whole (excuse me)
fucking point of deconstructing mainstream porn is to show it is not real. Big sigh, deep breath. You use mainstream porn to educate about how it is wrong ffs.

Are those breasts real? Would that happen in real life? Is she enjoying that? Did she agree to that? And when you have shown the issues you discuss it. Self fucking evidently. When given these analytical tools young people can make their own decisions.

Or you can just shout at them IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

Spillage - please I know my masturbatury habits are of interest to you but leave it alone.

Felas "what do you get out of it " can we leave my personal habits out of it and focus on the discussion.

And the question remains how would you educate young people?

People don't need porn to own their sexuality and understand what they do or don't like

They really don't.

Lass, with research pointing toward younger girls being shamed and coerced into taking part in ever more outlandish sexual acts with their pornsick teenage boyfriends, it's difficult to see how anyone can justify "porn as an educational tool".

Oh goodness yes. Educational value wasn't my suggestion. Bit mentioned it and I pondered that if there really are people who are unsure of the basic mechanics I suppose it might be possible in very strict conditions to show this. I suspect it would fail as actual porn however

Or we could try to engage with people whose views we disagree with in a reasonable way. We could give some ground, to gain ground. If we talk to and listen to young people, give them analytical tools to form their own judgements.

Well I think that's what sillage has been doing. You won't have it unless we admit porn is great. At least we've moved on from consent now .

People don't need porn to own their sexuality and understand what they do or don't like.

bitof are you still feeling ok about watching it after these discussions? What do you get out of it that you couldn't get out of an eroticism book or a fully acted sex scene?

Hmm, I think I'd rather that didn't happen.

I really have no need or desire to see a woman being harmed for other people's sexual gratification.

If that's going to be posted, then can a warning be posted please?

Please knock off the drama queenery about how my posts are bullying and oppressive. You are not being victimized and your moaning about it got boring two pages ago.

You are free to share the recordings of prostituted women you masturbate with and explain why you think they avoid the failings of all other so-called "feminist porn."

Imso - thanks for the input. Don't let yourself get bullied off the thread.

Well we could try to educate young people by just telling them "it's really bad and you shouldn't do it" however that is the least effective educational tool ever. Just say No - least effective marketing message of all time. Crap song too.

Or we could try censorship but again that doesn't work.

We could try shouting and say it's EVIL STOP IT, but that only irritates people.

We could try to shame them but that won't work either.

Or we could try to engage with people whose views we disagree with in a reasonable way. We could give some ground, to gain ground. If we talk to and listen to young people, give them analytical tools to form their own judgements.

We could consider feminist porn.

Or we could dismiss other people's views out of hand and regurgitate the same arguments.