Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

I meant 're girls, how porn has affected their boyfriends and how their boyfriends have affected them.

The kids might well respect you bitof even if they did not agree or did not do what you said!

I think it could be about personal integrity. You could make it clear how harmful things are without trying to 'lecture' them.

Plus I think (naively maybe) that one day these boys might ask you ethical stuff. You seem to resent any kind of 'moral' objections to things. How will you respond if any of these boys do find a moral angle and ask you.

Anyway, I think much as we may say other children have different starts to life, different realities, do we expect less for them? We may talk to them differently. But must we (society) lower our expectations?

Just curious, do you work with the girls too. Do you hear how porn watching has affected their boyfriends?

Not picking on you bit of you do need to answer if you do not wish to.

I got the "no means no" message, don't worry! (We all make howlers typing from time to time).

They sound like the sort of teens my mum spent a lifetime teaching - when my mum and I talked about things (drugs use for instance) she would often say "but you're coming at this from the angle of teaching nice middle class university kids who have a motive to grow out of this sort of behaviour, because they have a future in front of them, I'm teaching the sort of kids who, once a dealer gets their hands on them, will just spiral downwards." So I can see that you are dealing with a very challenging reality, and as you say, the priority is getting across messages about consent in real life... But do you never worry (because they won't be watching nice ethically sourced porn with careful preambles about consent and documentary footage of the actors doing their post scene debrief on their phones - I'd guess they'll be watching some of the stuff that makes my stomach churn) that the sort of porn they're watching undoes some of the messages you're fighting so hard to get across?

Ohhh I just reread that, I don't tell them no to no means no, I tell them no means no like I reaaaalllly mean it. Hope that makes sense.

Matilda this I could imagine saying "if you feel you cannot live without porn, then you are not the sort of person I wish to be in a relationship with". I just have a real problem with people speaking in confrontational statements " I will not tolerate this". It's cos if I spoke like that at work I would get thumped.

porn not pron!

"We joke at work that we don't change them they change us..." Do you get paid to be changed by these pron addicted boys?

maybe you could use some sort of arguments like:
boys addicted to porn can really struggle to have real sexual relationships with real women.
Because real women are used in these films, real women like your sisters, girls friends, relatives etc, they are harmed and you are taking part in the industry that harms them
One day you may be a dad, to a daughter, do you want the men who meet her to treat her as the women in these films are treated??

Thanks Matilda always interesting. I think you are right there is a moral element to this discussion and I really, really dislike passing moral judgments as you correctly identity. Fundamentally I think porn can/could be/is a personal matter of sexual choice (assuming the porn is ethically produced). Others take a different moral view and I respect that.

I also think morality changes. You see nothing wrong with teenagers wanting sex, well thirty years ago lots of people did. Moral opinion has moved dramatically. It has moved on gay sex and from the young people I know is moving radically in relation to porn.

I really like your "mutually respectful situations" and admire it as an ideal. However, I work with teenagers, mainly boys, mainly inner city. They do not live in this world. Suggesting they stop using porn would reduce any credibility I have to zero. You only get to tell them NO about a few things. I save my NOs for FMG, no means no and women's right to choose.

We joke at work that we don't change them they change us. Innit.

But I still think you're conflating two issues, Bit. I honestly get the impression that you think being anti porn is, deep down, being anti sex. And it isn't, it really isn't. I see nothing wrong with realising that most teenagers will want to have sex - and that the aim of sex education should be to enable them to have sex safely, enjoyably, in a mutually respectful situation when they have the emotional maturity to do so, and to help them develop a sense of their own boundaries, help them to avoid people who are coercive/abusive, and educate them in how not to be coercive/abusive (even by accident).

You can believe this and still want to say to them "think about the circumstances of the production of most porn - do you really want to be jerking off to something that might in fact be filmed evidence of a real rape taking place?" Just as you want to say to them "you know that novel where the 'hero' rapes the woman but she comes to enjoy it - that's made up - do not emulate it in your real life." (And you may, at this point, say "but that's conflating real life and fantasy/novels" - but the figures on date rape and coercive sex suggest that there must be a fair few men out there not managing to make that distinction).

You seem to think that because sex is, absent all complicating factors, a jolly good thing that we must never pass moral judgement on any expression of sexuality. I think this is wrong - all sex takes place, has to take place, in a moral context. Even if that moral context is, say, in a one night stand being respectful to your partner, checking out that they're okay with things all the way through, using a condom, being respectful to them afterwards - in short treating them like a human being rather than an inflatable doll. It is not wrong to set moral limits on one's sexual activity, nor is it wrong to seek a partner who shares a moral world view with you (which might include saying "if you feel you cannot live without porn, then you are not the sort of person I wish to be in a relationship with" - and expecting them to be honest with you, even if that means the end of the relationship, not lie about their porn usage).

Vestal - And that's the point most European countries have not gone for a flat out "don't have sex it's bad." Europeans have compromised, "yes you can/will/do have sex so make it safe". This compromise has worked. The crux of the issue was whether to have sex or not. Once it was agreed they probably would have sex we educated them to make it safe.

Contrast this to some US states where abstinence is taught "don't have sex until you are married" the prohibition message has failed spectacularly.

That is my point. Is it better to accept that teenagers will use porn and offer them ethical strategies (equivalent of safe sex) rather than just saying don't?

A flat out "no" serves to antagonise young people, they then listen to nothing you say. A flat out "don't" or saying "what you are doing is bad" halts all conversation. They feel guilt so they won't discuss issues and carry on doing what they were doing but in private. They consider you as "not knowing how it is" and any other messages are lost.

As an aside - I would never tell my partner "I will not tolerate that" that is a very long way from the type of relationship I have or would ever want to have.

Because simply telling teenagers something is bad is not always successful, e.g. drugs, smoking, alcohol, swimming with no life guards, unprotected sex etc

Not always, but we still try. And actually, in Europe, telling teenagers to not have unprotected sex seems to work rather nicely. At least compared to the teenage pregnancy rates in the US where they have abstinence only "sex ed".

Of course, it helps if the parents don't do those things. Getting teenagers to do what they are told , not what they are shown, is always difficult.
So, first step, don't watch porn. Second step, don't tolerate porn use in your partner. Third step, tell children that porn harms women and is toxic before they are old enough to have friends who watch porn.

Because simply telling teenagers something is bad is not always successful, e.g. drugs, smoking, alcohol, swimming with no life guards, unprotected sex etc

Telling adults to be careful around fanfic doesn't always work The ghost and I now now what Harry does in his spare time.

Bitofacow does agreeing to differ mean I can't answer any of your questions?

If it doesn't then...

"Now can someone tell me what advice we give to young women who in increasing numbers choose to watch and enjoy porn." How do you know how many women watch it, want to watch it or enjoy it?

Why don't you tell them it hurts women and it's toxic.

You lot may think I'm the Pervert in Chief because I look at porn but let me tell you that Harry Potter is a dirty,dirty boy. Good grief!

You're telling me. Why did I look? I used to like reading those books to my nephew and now they're ruined. RUINED!

gulps, hobbits???????

You're actually very unlikely to find domme roles in erotic fanfiction, Bit, at least in the variety of fandoms I frequent. Domme roles seem to be more a male gaze thing, in my experience. You're more likely to find a female writer creating male/male (slash) dom/sub smut (In the Marvel Universe, Loki features frequently in both bottom and top roles, Harry/Draco features this dynamic often, and Sherlock/Watson.)
Although some writers (like myself) do rather love tormenting our male characters in het fics, it's usually not the female character doing the tormenting, and the fics are what's called hurt/comfort.

MostlyHet AO3 is much wilder than fanfiction.net due to there being less rules around fics (not that fanfiction.net enforces them,) and has waaay more m/m fics. I frequent and write on both, as AO3 has more Marvel and Dragon Age, for instance, and ff.net has more Harry Potter and Firefly.
It's really interesting, slash fiction. It's generally women writing, and so you get to see how they/we perceive sexual interactions very clearly. It's disappointing how often the dynamics are unequal; women as a class have been very thoroughly programmed to find misogyny in sex arousing, in my opinion.

Ah, Durincest... and that's only the tip of the iceberg. (0ooerr missus, that has sparked a line of thought about some of the cliches of sex writing used in slash fiction, but I won't go there, I won't I won't I won't - bet Vestal can fill in the gaps in my thought processes).

And then there's some of the stuff in the Marvel Cinematic universe. There's stuff in there where the plot synopsis has me reaching for the brain bleach and thinking "oh my god why?" and "how do I forget I saw that?" and "you know I was complaining about that gen (general as in U rated) author being about as exciting as watching magnolia paint dry while dressed in wincyette pyjamas - well I take it all back, I want to wrap her fluffly little stories round me like a comfort blanket and keep the night light on..."

Ha, if you really want to know what people (probably mostly women, but it's even more anonymous than AO3) fantasise about, have a look at the Hobbit Kink Meme on Livejournal. (Have the brain bleach ready, though, this one isn't the dumpster, it's the sewer.)

Contemplates name change to NewPervertInChief.

Yup a friend of mine described AO3 (Archive of Our Own) as "dumpster diving in the collective subconscious". There's probably a kink for everyone out there... from the harmless but weird through to the "hell, women fantasise about THAT?"

Well I have been off looking at fanfic.

You lot may think I'm the Pervert in Chief because I look at porn but let me tell you that Harry Potter is a dirty,dirty boy. Good grief!

Anyway off to see what Ron has been up to.

Tristan Taormino has made approx 24 porn videos - l think that classes her as niche. She is more famous for her books and her efforts to educate via YouTube.
Yes, as previously discussed, there is one negative story about her work and that story does not contain the voice of the 'injured party'. Oh and apparently she doesn't pay as well as mainstream producers.

Now can someone tell me what advice we give to young women who in increasing numbers choose to watch and enjoy porn.

I will start by saying telling young people not to do something doesn't always work.

I think women's sexuality is controlled by 'bad' porn but isn't it equally controlled by banning all porn?

Unless "all porn" in your definition includes the sexual fantasies a woman has in her own head, no.
And no feminist wants to ban erotic literature.

I bet there is some really interesting fanfic in this area.

Actually, there isn't that much, at least in the fandoms I read. Loads of "maledom portrayed as natural order of things", stuff, though.

Actually I said mainstream porn producers. I meant people like Tristan Taormino.

mission great analogy.

I'm sorry Felas I don't think I ever defended mainstream porn. I'll go back and check. I think I have been clear I am proposing that some kink and feminist porn can be made ethnically. I did not bring up the issue of literature but think it is a fascinating offshoot and have tried to include it in the debate.

I have been told all porn is mainstream and cannot be made ethically. Here is a quote from makelovenotporn.tv. real people submit written or filmed porn and then they:

"review every video submission to make sure it's #realworldsex before deciding to publish. So please make sure whatever you send our way is consensual, and captured in a contextualized, cliche-free #realworld way."

If it does not meet their standards it is not published.

Many women( mostly younger women) watch porn. Surveys indicate many young women watch porn alone. Fact.
In real life do we say to these women:
A - "you shouldn't want this, you should feel guilty"
B - "here is a guilt free alternative"
C - " as a feminist you should feel particularly guilty "

Telling people what they 'should' want sexually and what they 'should' like is all about control. I think women's sexuality is controlled by 'bad' porn but isn't it equally controlled by banning all porn?

In relation to literature I mentioned the role of domme in BDSM etotic fiction. A domme is women who takes on the classical dominant role. So it's a nice little role reversal. Subverting the trope so to speak and this is becoming more common in mainstream erotica. Tip of the iceberg possibly. I bet there is some really interesting fanfic in this area.

As some of us are writing erotic literature, wanting that banned would be quite hypocritical.
When I talk about porn, I talk about films involving real people.