Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

"Given the rapid rise of the net and what it provided, the sheer scale of it, it should undeniably manifest in crime statistics 10-15 years out from the internet boom."

It did. You reported yourself that it did. Remember when you wrote:

"I don't know what has happened in the UK but in Australia reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly, but deaths have gone down."

It angers me that YOU WROTE THAT and then keep on saying that crime didn't increase. It did. You wrote it yourself. That you simply don't care because you're desperately addicted to your perceived need to watch women get fucked in every hole while considering yourself a good person is the problem.

reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly,

reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly,

reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly,

Missi, I'm not sure if you're around on this thread, but I wanted to ask you a question about sexual content about Bucky if you are.

I can only do brief posts as I've got a wrist in plaster and am on many painkillers so incoherent and typing one handed, but I just wanted to post to say I liked italian's options for how we counteract the overwhelming influence of porn. and to second, I think it was buffy's?, point about how interesting (and unsurprising) it is that the standard of evidence for the harm that porn causes is so massively high.

really, I wonder that stastiatics about rape, violence and aggression towards women aren't showing significant downward trends, given the progress that we have made towards a more equitable society - haven't we? and yet I don't believe we do see that huge improvement and I don't think that's at a all unconnected with the inexorable rise of porn.

And the water is muddy. It's a yes and a no.
That is one of my points. I don't think the issue is black and white. Right or wrong the way lots of other posters do.
I think both participants in the last link I posted make some good points, I agree with both of them in parts.
People have entrenched positions making discussion a little futile.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

You wanted the question answered "is porn incompatible with human dignity?". I responded with a participant who I think has human dignity.

'Put' words in my mouth

I was answering the question asked.

I think Kitty has human dignity. That can not be used to words/thoughts in my mouth.

Other issues have been discussed previously on the thread.

"Human dignity, incompatibility with?"

I think this sex worker has human dignity.

That question makes no sense. Of course she has human rights.

The point at issue is whether filming and selling sex is incompatible with human dignity. I think it is. She is peddling porn and is putting a certain spin on it.

Her comment about porn is often the only industry where class mobility may be achieved is one of the stupidest things I've seen on the internet.

But does she have human dignity?

As a woman without a degree, or as a transwoman, porn is often the only industry where class mobility may be achieved; a fact that needs to be dealt with in order to pave the way both for financial equality and ethical pornography

Kitty is so clearly promoting the sex"industry" and all its weasel words of "sex workers" and "sex positivism" that I would not take her word on anything. However the risible statement above is enough on its own to discredit Kitty, for me anyway, as having anything worthwhile to say.

Not really sure what "...if I'm being really conservative a growing % of the female orgasm is porn generated. Anywhere from 10%-33%." means?

Agree with Buffy and whoever said it originally, porn is "...simply incompatible with human dignity".

And I agree that "... tweaking the etiquette of the conditions under which men get to legitimately deprive women of our basic human dignity, and the conditions under which it's not legitimate to do so." is one where I would personally also say "No thank you."

BUT realisitcally if the culture is to change I think we need to control porn and then dismantle it, hopefully by the time we are really doing this the society will be less hostile to women (looks out of window and sees pig flying over!)

whatnow123 Re "What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection."

My cry would be, why do we need porn! can men really not masturbate with their own thoughts? Or have cnsensual sex wit their own partners or people they meet who want to have sex with them.

Men (and women) survived for millennium without watching women being humped on a screen. How are they now incapable of not doing it when they know how harmful it is to themselves and to others!

In relation to your specific points, I am not sure how many straight men would like to watch porn that doesn't involved women, and I am guessing it would involve men dressing as women and/or men treating other men how they want to treat women (e.g. not nicely). So essentially perpetuating the ideas. Plus as a woman I do not just care about women and girls, I car about men and boys (I have a husband, and a son, male relatives and many male friends) I don't think porn is good for anyone!

How are you going to control how those lesbian porn flicks are watched? How are you going to ensure men aren't watching them! The idea of lesbian porn flicks just for women is not possible and also, lesbians are people too, their human dignity is diminished/demolished by being dehumanized too.

Webcam, no guarantees of anything, at all, ever. A bad idea.

Re "Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions."

To me if two people want to consent-ually have sex and film it and watch it -it is their business and it is not harmful if they both agree.

This is not, to me, porn and it is not an issue. But even in that situation I would say to either party that the footage could end up in the wrong hands, on line, and we all know very sadly that that may well not end well for either party.

Agree with Buffy and whoever said it originally, "...simply incompatible with human dignity".

And I agree that "... tweaking the etiquette of the conditions under which men get to legitimately deprive women of our basic human dignity, and the conditions under which it's not legitimate to do so." is one where I would also say "No thank you." BUT realisitcally if the culture is to change I think we need to control porn and then dismantle it, hopefully by the time we are really doing this the society will be less hostile to women (looks out of window and sees pig flying over!)

whatnow123 Re "What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection." I am not sure how many straight men would like to watch pron that doesn't involved women, and I am guessing it woudl involve men dressing as women and men treating others how they want to treat women and so essentially perpetuating the ideas. Plus as a woman I do not just care about women and girls, I don't think porn is good for anyone!

How are you going to control how those lesbian porn flicks are watched? How are you going to ensure men aren't watching them! The idea of lesbian pron flicks just for women is not possible and also, lsbians are people too, their human dignity is deminished by beiing humanised too.

Webcam, no gaurantees at all ever. A bad idea.

Re "Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions." To me if two people want to consentually have sex and film it and watch it is their business and it is not harmful if they both agree. This is not, to me, porn and it is not an issue. But even in that situation I would say to either party that the footage could end up in the worng hands, on line, and we all know very sadly that that may well not end well for either party.

Joe re "Italian No I don't think holding an opinion makes you self-righteous and nor do you. Your comment is really just a slur suggesting that I dismiss opinions that I disagree with isn't it?"

NO, it was a request to explain what you meant, which is what you have done, so thank you.

whatnow123 re "Porn is an easy scapegoat. However, to move the thread on. What are the answers? Actual solutions? Education, bans (what would be banned), barriers etc." and "The question still remains. What action do you want taken?"

I think we treat it like anything else that is toxic and harmful.

In the order I am thinking of them (roughly) not in any specific order...

1. We use public money to educate people about the dangers and harms of porn- using language like 'toxic, harmful, abusive' which says what it really is. (Not language that will not make people WANT to look at it -e.g. naughty, bad, immoral etc.

2. We age-appropriately educate children in school to be wary of porn, to realize it can damage their real life sexual experiences in a negative way (when older) and can cause their thoughts on sex to develop in an unnatural and unhelpful way. Especially damaging relationships with the opposite sex (and even to some extend, especially for girls, with their own perception of themselves).

3. We promote human rights for all and encourage young people, especially young men, not to see girls and women as sexual objects. We may all, as a human race (in the most part), like sex, have sex or whatever BUT one sex does not become the 'sex object' because objectification dehumanizes people and that is what porn does, in spade loads.

4. We make sure mobile device makers, computer companies, internet providers etc, all provide ways to exclude porn and turn it off, deny access to it, Facebook etc and all others must have strict controls on porn images and misuse and must be forced to used them. So those of us who wish to be able to use the internet, without such noxious content, can do so.

5. We regulate and control all who legally produce porn so that those who 'work' (are prostituted) in the industry are protected as far as they can be (e.g. safer sex, condoms, consent, not putting out images of women being abused as if this is acceptable, it is not).

6. We prosecute all who produce illegal porn, all who promote it etc but I would advise a Nordic model that those who are filmed in the porn industry are exempt from this ban. You can read about the Nordic model here.

nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Interestingly, they use the example of smoking, how our attitudes to smoking (as a society) changed when we knew what harm it did. I had not seen this page (to my knowledge) or heard the smoking example being used for prostitution or porn (as far as I am aware) so it is interesting because I used it a few pages back (equating porn with smoking).

7. We make sure men and boys, and women and girls, feel empowered to resist porn, resist the pressure to comply with things that are harmful for them, physically, emotionally or psychologically. In the spirit of working together.

I, personally, would tie this in with helping young men to have a better emotional model for life, for relationships, which may well see less young men attempting suicide and less fathers separated from their children. Men need support too. Whether this work would be undertaken by a charity, or a government funded body, I do not know. I would like to see it funded by government, personally.

If anyone know of any charity doing such work, (point 7) or of any doing work along these lines, please do tell us.

newint.org/sections/argument/2014/03/01/argument-can-porn-be-ethical/

This debate reflects this thread.

I think Kitty has human dignity.

What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection.

Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions.

Ensuring that in porn production consent is given. Better regulation overall of porn production. Both totally agree.

If an amateur video is uploaded to a site both parties in the video need to be identified, contacted and permission sought.

Perfectly reasonable.

I'm less concerned about titles on individual porn videos. People can write anything. If the acts are consensual and sharing of the video is consensual then it's a good start.