So called honour..

I agree little

Family honour is such an important part of some cultures of course it's a way of controlling women but it's a different form of domestic violence than partner/husband and partner/wife. Often fathers and brothers will be involved and other family members will often support their actions

I had a bit of training on 'honour killings' with work as I sometimes work with youths and vulnerable adults.

I think the term also conveys that these murders are part of a conspiracy among certain closed cultures to murder 'disobedient' women. Its not just one man with a twisted view going mad and killing his niece. Its often a family group working together.

I can't think of another phrase that would cover that aspect.

Sorry, don't think that link worked, here it is in full:

www.change.org/p/bbc-stop-the-bbc-from-using-the-euphemistic-term-honour-killings-to-describe-murder?tk=3j3mCEw6IIIz6eZmZWlZV71MxdfBsaY6yuxX2NWiW3M&utm_medium=email&utm_source=signature_receipt&utm_campaign=new_signature

I signed this the other day. Please join.

Interesting that we've become so inured to murder that it needs an attention grabbing headline

Is it new? In my lifetime I've been unable to care less which paramilitary idiot was killing each other in Northern Ireland for example.

The term honour is relevant

honour murder victim I think describes the awful horror of what has happened a women being murdered usually by a family member there is no justifying her murder by the mainstream media here

I think it is different from the child abuse/porn argument as porn is something many people enjoy watching and between consenting adults (what goes on in the porn industry is of course questionable) child abuse is never anything but abuse/rape so should be called that

I feel "honour killing" is more to do with the victim than the murderer and implies the victim did something to cause her death.
Although it is usually men who do the murder, sometimes women are involved e.g. in Shafilea Ahmeds case.
I would prefer to use a term that makes it clear these female victims were blameless. Even putting "so called" in front of the term doesn't workforme.

I do see Lass' point about the term, 'so called honour killing,' highlighting the fact that the murderer had a misogynistic attitude towards the victim as a result of feeling that men in some way own women or should be allowed to control their lives and, if they can't, then their masculinity is in question. However, I do not like the term 'honour' being used to describe this feeling. Honour suggests a feeling of calm and selflessness which is completely lacking in these cases so it shouldn't be called that.

For example when youngsters steal cars and drive them like maniacs, it's called 'joyriding' (and not 'so called joyriding'), because the crime gives the culprit a sense of joy but there is no implication that this is actually a joyful thing to do. However, I doubt that murderers in 'honour killings' actually feel any honour (the violence of these murders actually implies they are feeling anger, hatred and frustration)but the term does imply that the crime is linked, however misguidedly, to the concept of honour so it's completely wrong.

The headline could just say "(name of person) murdered by family member"
I don't like the term honour killing at all.
Interesting that we've become so inured to murder that it needs an attention grabbing headline

It doesn't capture the misogynistic aspect. It would not catch my eye on the BBC site. It could refer to anything from any "domestic" situation to mafia hit men.

I work in social care setting with young people affected by domestic and sexual violence, and we refer to it as 'so called honour killing' off the back of advice of key women's charities

I think its important to use the 'so called' bit - absolutely

The BBC reports used that expression. "Premediated domestic murder" tells you far less in a headline. Headlines are intended to grab attention. If you want to change people's attitudes getting their attention is a fairly basic starting point.

"Premediated domestic murder"

That could cover a wife murdering her husband for the insurance money. You lose the immediacy of knowing the motivation was the appalling concept of loss of honour.

I work in social care setting with young people affected by domestic and sexual violence, and we refer to it as 'so called honour killing' off the back of advice of key women's charities.

I think its important to use the 'so called' bit - absolutely.

I agree, though, that 'violent hate crimes against women' would be a much more accurate description.

If sex were to be added to the list of characteristics protected against hate crimes, then these killings would be hate crimes against women, and we could call them that.

That should have happened long ago.

Also worth noting that even if the media stops calling it an honour killing and calls it a premeditated domestic murder or something, doesn't mean that the criminal justice system, psychologists, criminologists, etc, will forget that this particular concept of 'honour' is at the root.

Yes, and those are the groups of people who need to understand the murderers.
The general public, though, just has to strongly disapprove of murder, and I think it is a good thing if such a murderer sees on the media that people do not think he was in any way honourable, that they don't even mention that he thought he was, that they treat him like what he is, a common murderer who murdered to further his own selfish goals.

I mean, is it necessary for people in general to be able to identify it as a phenomenon? If the general public knows that it is a thing, then other would-be murderers also know that it is a thing, and might imitate it.

If we used another highly specific term for the same thing, then statistics on how common it is, etc, would still be possible, and that's what matters, isn't it?

If the naming of particular crimes is up for discussion, what about the word 'domestic'? You could argue that this word is similarly problematic

No police force in the UK refers to violence against women or children as " a domestic". The term "domestic violence "/ domestic abuse" is used by charities, advice organisations.

The use of the term in the way the BBC use it makes me more likely to open the link.

I think if anything it is edging towards identifying it as a hate crime. It is a marker of the hateful thinking which motivated the crime.

"Premeditated domestic murder due to a sexist concept of honour" makes much clearer what it is and what our society thinks of it.

And I actually think that "premediated domestic murder" suffices, after all, they can still mention that the girl had a boyfriend and that her father didn't like that because of his woman-hating attitude, and that he had her killed because he hated her for being a woman. (I think perhaps we should say "woman-hating" instead of "sexism", to make it clear to those men that we are not fooled, that we know that they hate their daughters and sisters, and that we detest them for it.)

Or would you prefer the BBC didn't mention it and you can then all imagine no one thinks "honour killings" is a concept anymore ?

Don't exaggerate Vestal there is nothing in the BBC reports of the recent case which does not acknowledge it is murder. The BBC also reported the victim's parents referred to it as such , but clearly in the context they were as disgusted by the concept of "honour killing" as any decent person should be.

I don't see how anyone could put the spin on the BBC 's reporting that is being put on it here. The use of "honour killing" is legitimate to emphasise the stupidly and bigotry of those who think honour killing is a justified concept.