"Every woman is beautiful" and feminism

In the words of The Incredibles, "when everyone is special; no one is". Either everyone is beautiful in which case it's a non-concept and we can all shut up about it. Or, some people are physically beautiful and its either important or not.

We all bloody know what Dove mean, "awwww if you use enough product you too can look good. Not model good clearly but good enough". Urgh.

I see this as just another example of the media/society trying to pretend to that the way women are viewed and treated has gone through a huge change when actually there is still such a long way to go. I agree that the 'every woman is beautiful/celebrate your natural beauty at any age etc' messages just reiterate the idea that the way women look is/should be a very high priority.

The Dove adverts in particular irritate me (although as pointed out upthread the thread where they asked MN for volunteers got some brilliant responses) and I find that actually the idea that the women on those adverts are what they class as 'real' women with imperfections etc (when clearly they are very attractive women) makes me feel like I must be even less attractive than I thought.

I find it interesting that if a woman states a fact about a skill that they lack (eg not very fit/not easily motivated/have a poor sense of direction, don't understand technology, not academic etc) people will either agree or point out that this is unimportant and that the person has other skills. If a woman makes a negative comment about her physical appearance friends will tell her she is wrong and often others will look uncomfortable like she has broken some sort of taboo.

Hi, Buzz Magazine. You've posted that clip on two or three threads now, with the same c&p post each time. None of the threads was about the music industry.

MrsWooster that's exactly how I feel. I am clever and funny and creative and kind but I constantly feel worthless because I've got a face like a potato. I know I will never be beautiful and that's okay, but it's not okay with 'society' which seems to think I have to be striving the whole time to attain beauty.

I use a Dove deoderant, Lass.

It is effective for my not terribly active lifestyle, and has an inoffensive scent which doesn't clash with my chosen perfume.

I'm not sure that they would be interested in using that as an advertising campaign, though.

I'm personally struggling so much right now over my looks. I'm 2 stone overweight and am undeniably ugly. I hate myself and I hate my husband for trying to have sex with me - how can he be so desperate? I also have a questionable personality.

Where are my adverts?

Misses the point completely but what is Dove anyway? I've never bought any of their products.

Interesting. I am intelligent, funny, all kinds of ace things and I have always felt at a massive disadvantage in life (and that is an understatement) because I am not beautiful. In a world where beautiful wasn't the benchmark, I'd be the fucking Queen! perhaps as well, really

OP I totally agree. Rather than broadening the definition of "beautiful" to include a more diverse range of women they should be removing the idea of "beautiful" as an aspiration altogether.

Of course they are scared that they won't sell which is the bottom line.

But if I owned a soap empire I would release an ad where it started off in typical Dove stylee, with all types of semi naked women (fat, thin, all different races) floating coyly across the screen then BAM! A message comes up saying "Screw that! It's soap. It cleans your armpits. End of".

I like to think it would sell.

I agree with you OP. Also, I hate the way being slim/skinny is seen as some kind of achievement/virtue! In the genetic accident that IS life, some of us were born to be tall, short, naturally skinny or weighty, misshapen, different, NOT the "perceived beautiful". The women in my family have a tendancy for being pear shaped. That's how it is. That's how I am. I've dieted and exercised and been various weights in my life but, my basic shape is a 5ft 5, pear.

I'm not beautiful either. Attractive, yes. But never beautiful.

OP I agree with you. I am trying to articulate my point and I think the reason I find it uncomfortable is within that message there is an assumption that "being beautiful" is a goal that all women should aspire to, and an assumption that all women do actually strive to "be beautiful" and there is an underlying message of all the little women coming together and making themselves attractive, giggling together and thinking about their appearance. It's just boring and patronising. The whole "real women" notion at the moment is vomit inducing. I'm all for a fairer and more accurate representation of women in the media, but a campaign focussed on cherry picking women who don't fit the usual beauty norm and then elevating them with a good blow dry and a power lipstick and cheering from the sidelines like a proud mother is just embarrassing and patronising. We all have eyes. Celebrate women and people for their strengths. Don't take a perfectly capable, standard looking woman and coo over her looks. I hope that makes sense ish?

I hate the bulshit Dove ads. They drive me crazy.

I really like the work of beauty redefined they say things like "you are capable of more than looking hot"

I agree MrsK.

I have been tempted to do the passive aggressive thing of apologising for somehow misleading people to think that I give a fuck about what they think about me ... So far I haven't quite said it but it's close ...

I've been thinking about this a lot and I have come up with two issues that I have.

1. Physical beauty is given an importance that I don't agree with. I tried to think of an equivalent and the best I could come up with is something like 'graceful'. If an advertiser started saying 'All women are graceful', most people would be thinking 'WTF? Who cares? Why should I give a shot whether I'm graceful or not?' Unless you're a dancer, grace just doesn't really enter on our radars.

2. By saying 'All women are beautiful', it invites discussion. It invites judgement. It says 'go ahead and look around you, see how beautiful women are. Compare them, judge them.' Yes, they're expecting us to judge them as beautiful, but that doesn't change the fact that we're being invited to judge. I can't get past that, because why the hell should we be commenting on each other? When I see strangers, I have no right to evaluate them, to see if they pass some kind of standard. It's none of my business whether they're smart, brave, kind, funny or whatever. Not unless/until their actions directly affect me. Why do we as a society invite each other to pass judgment on people's appearance in this way?

Not sure if any of that will make sense, I'm very much still thinking my way through it.

This really irritates me. I'm not beautiful, and I'm not going to be no matter how many products I use. It's not a priority to me; I made my peace with being plain-looking long ago, and would much rather people complimented me on aspects of my personality, if they want to say something nice. Calling me beautiful would seem patronising and insincere, because I'm obviously not.

I wonder how much of it comes from fiction (and more archetypical fairy tales, etc.) where the beautiful characters are also kind, good and clever, and the ugly ones are villainous. Real life doesn't work like that, but these are the messages we grow up with. Maybe it's harder to associate an ugly/plain appearance with other positive attributes, so 'you're beautiful' when said to a woman who in no way fits the conventional standards of beauty is really 'I don't think of you the way I think of 'ugly' people.'

We talked about it this morning on the back of this thread, it was interesting.

What I hear when he says "you're beautiful" is "you are someone who was fortunate enough to be born looking a particular way that society deems acceptable for a woman and that's valuable". What he says he means is "the totality of you is, to me, very beautiful".

I make it complicated because of the relationship women have with their bodies, and now that I am aging, it's also something I think about as I "lose my looks" (sic). Looking the way I look (which, for reference, is a tall slim leggy blonde with regular features - conventionally attractive, for what that's worth) has been a mixed bag through my life. I have attracted a LOT of unwanted sexual attention. And now I'm in my forties, that is changing. And part of me says HURRAH! I want to be invisible in that way that older women get. But then part of me looks at my crows feet and my saggy backside and despairs

Eeeeh, it's complicated. I think when he says "you're beautiful", I think I'm just going to say "I love you" back, and then we'll both be happy.

On the other hand, I've asked him not to do it, because I really don't care much about my appearance. He says the fact I don't care is what makes me beautiful. But he still does it, though I ask him not to, so he's not doing it for me, he's doing it for him, IYSWIM? I wish he'd tell me I'm funny, or clever instead.

And it is not really honest. Not caring about looks doesn't make anyone more beautiful, it makes them more attractive, perhaps, but it does not improve anyone's looks to not care about them. (Except in cases where using botox makes someone uglier, that is)

There's a problem with the definition of the word "beauty"; it seems to mean at the same time abstract internal worth and goodness, and physical beauty.

I irritate my dd, but hope I'm not inadvertently damaging her self esteem, because I refuse to discuss whether she's beautiful or give any compliments to her on her looks at all because I think it's so damaging even if it's positive. It probably sounds too 'right on' written down but I've talked to her a lot about how her body is there to perform functions not to look good and if she's helping it perform as well as possible great - beyond that is pointless to think about. I do praise her like mad for achievement, effort, kindness etc though in case I come across as cruel!

I agree with everyone here. I just think that 'beautiful' is a useless description, it shouldn't even be a consideration really. I hate anyone commenting on my appearance, either positive or negative, because I feel that they're just looking at/considering my body, not the real me. Like judging a book by its cover or a new item by its packaging. Why would I care whether or not you like the packaging? Especially when men overwhelming get judged on their personality and achievements, NOT on their packaging.

I totally agree

It's just a big fat lie. Not all women are beautiful. What is beautiful?

Definitely agree - on one level it sounds very feminist, "oh there's beauty in everyone, look beyond the looks etc etc" but then below that is the undercurrent of "everyone must be beautiful to be happy, don't even think about being intelligent/kind/powerful/good etc but repulsive to look at".

Becomes quite uncomfortable if you replace 'beautiful' with another positive trait - "every woman is intelligent", "every woman is capable", "every woman is worthwhile"? Suddenly sounds anything from 'mansplain-y' to quite sinister but it's supposedly ok to say we all need labelling with beauty?

The fact that Dove are owned by Unilever who sell skin bleach and lightening products in other parts of the globe...well that's just not relevant.

I hate that advertising campaign. It's still saying women's looks are the most important thing, above everything else.

The fact is, it's a marketing plan. They want to sell products. Dove aren't there to make us feel good - although they are trying to make us feel good and to think that Dove cares so we go out and buy Dove. It's just a superficial advertising campaign aimed at selling us stuff.