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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

706 replies

PinkyofPie · 28/07/2016 15:40

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim Shock and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them Sad

OP posts:
JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:23

Anyone who said vanishingly small about stranger rapes would've been corrected.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 31/07/2016 21:20

Epidemic numbers? Does something need to happen in epidemic numbers for it to be a problem?

It's often pointed out here that the statistics for stranger rape are vanishingly small. Does that make it less significant? Would you appreciate it if men said 'Well it hardly ever happens so no need for preventative action...'

jacquetta You misunderstood my post actually. I was highlighting feminism's uneasy relationship with the legal system, not suggesting that you were actually campaigning for no trials. Hmm

And why do we need to have real victims? How about acknowledging hurt and injustice wherever you see it, rather than judging the validity of their claim according to their sex, or assuming that people who are concerned about one mustn't care about the other?

I may be wrong, but I thought that feminists would ideally like to see a world in which the sexes were equal and, without diminishing what it means to be female, gender free. But it seems that nowhere are gender lines so entrenched as in feminism.
Your life has been ruined by something you didn't do. Are you female? If so, that's awful. Are you male? If so, get to the back of the queue and how dare you suggest you are a victim too.

Spare the anecdotes aye, we could all be trading anecdotes all night. It's not evidence.

Rape is a special case. Both rape and the accusation of an innocent person having raped are an invasion of privacy in a manner that is unlike any other crime except possibly child abuse. There's no question about that. The courts do recognise it because they grant anonymity to the victim. Until the guilty verdict is passed, the accused is also potentially a victim. It doesn't matter how rarely. Unless the verdict is 'guilty' they are a victim in taking any punishment at all for a crime the court has found they are not guilty of.

This is the unfortunate consequence of, among other things, the 'I believe you' campaign and is, as we have said, unique among crimes except possibly child abuse; we instantly believe the person speaking on their word alone. Feminism has had that effect on many people in society (and I think on balance it's a good thing). But we need to recognise that the impact of 'turning up the volume' of the rape survivor's voice has been to 'turn down the volume' of the accused. To prevent potentially innocent people getting caught up in the crossfire, I believe there are grounds to refrain from publicly labelling a face and a name.

OP, your last post is a case study in bigotry. Men who have not committed rape are entitled to justice and freedom from negative consequences as much as any woman. They shouldn't have to shoulder consequences and be an unfortunate casualty of the feminist cause, simply because other members of their race are despicable people. And thinking this does not diminish my concern for women - that is possible, you know. To care deeply and equally about both sides. In fact, it's the only way you are ever going to win the battle for hearts and minds.

You don't have to stop feeling concern for women - just extend your concern. It doesn't mean we can't throw the book at rapists. Otherwise, how can you, in all seriousness, expect the man on the street to give a flying fuck about you? This is about all of us and about justice, surely, and it goes beyond gender boundaries. If you want a different world, show the way. And no, don't be adorable. Be what you are demanding that they be. Not for them but for yourselves.

tryingtomake I am sincerely sorry for the experience you had, both the event and the aftermath. But please, don't judge the system without having given it a chance. You didn't give the legal system an opportunity to bring this person to justice.

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 20:52

Catching up on the thread, as my earlier "bye for now" meant I was off for a while, doing RL.

Gone, I linked to WBY not to give you homework but because you seemed to be misunderstanding the campaign, if you think it's about removing trials for rape.

"Perhaps I am more positive about where we could/should be going as a society because the young people I work with rarely make any distinction between rape or abuse of men vs women"

I'm really pleased to hear this, Emma. There is always some awful criticism of victims eg Adam Johnson's, glad there's push back too.

ripples101 · 31/07/2016 20:17

Yes ripples I do find it hard to believe that men have their lives ruined in the epidemic numbers people like to claim because of being accused of rape.

Men's lifes ruined in epidemic numbers? (epidemic being the key word) Was that always your assertion? Because if it was then I agree with you.

On an individual basis however (irrespective of whether the indivudual was male or female), I don't find it hard to believe that individuals have had their lives ruined because of a false allegation.

PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 20:16

Toads don't forget Mike Tyson! Oh and a number of 100 or so fuckwit celebrities also signed a petition so the probably-rapist (who managed to do a bunk out the US when he was to be put on trial for raping a child) Roman Polanski could attend a ceremony in he country where, not only he was accused but where his victim lives, so people could tell him how amazing he is. They thought his extradition order for his sex crimes against children should be set aside because he made a few good films.

But really, it's the menz who're the real victims here.

In the meantime, I doubt anyone is queueing up offering Amber Heard work. And Ulrika Johnson's career never recovered after she had the temerity to say she was raped. That poor man, she's a woman and had 4 kids by 4 different men so must be a liar

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ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:15

Oh Pinky you're so selfish you know that Angry

You're supposed to care about everyone and everything otherwise you're just a cruel nasty twat who clearly hates the menz Angry

So selfish.

Wink
PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 20:10

trying Flowers

I hav never been raped but was repeatedly sexually assaulted and harassed by a male family member. When I told my mum she minimised it tremendously and asked if I had done anything to lead him on, as at the time I was a "promiscuous teenager". She is will close to said family member and We Don't Talk About It.

This isn't an isolated thing. Sexual crimes against women have been, and still are, played down every day and brushed under the carpet. You don't have to look very far for similar story upon similar story. I care, I want things to change for women, I want a different world for my DD. I don't want her to be raped or assualted and have her rapist walk around Scot free.

And people really expect me to focus my efforts and concern on a tiny number of men who get falsely accused instead, otherwise why should men start giving a shit and stop raping? It's the epitome of male entitlement, smacks of MRA and shows some people couldn't give a flying fuck about women, except to question their valid beliefs that women should stop being fucking raped.

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ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:09

Yes ripples I do find it hard to believe that men have their lives ruined in the epidemic numbers people like to claim because of being accused of rape.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:08

And he's being doing it wrong all these years!

Someone really needs to tell him...

ripples101 · 31/07/2016 20:06

Toads...

Both you and I (and everyone else) know what you stated and I responded to what you DID say. I used an example of being falsely accused of ANOTHER crime when responding to you. For the very reason of implying that being falsely accused of ANY crime can have serious consequences upon the life of the person who is accused.

So, unlike yourself (you did say that you quote "find it hard to believe"), I don't find it hard to believe that it can have such consequences.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:06

Has anyone managed to get in touch with Craig Charles yet? Someone really needs to tell him that he's doing this whole accused of rape thing all wrong.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:04

But pinky being accused of rape is just so much worse than being accused of any other crime, no matter how serious that other crime may be.

Of course I don't have any evidence that being accused of rape is worse...I just know that being accused of rape carries this huge stigma that will ruin your life that doesn't happen for other crime. Again I have no evidence for this. I just know it does!

We need to protect all the menz at all cost!

Hmm
ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:01

So sorry trying Flowers

I don't really know what to say except you have some twatty people in your life.

PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 20:00

I agree that being accused of any crime you are innocent of will always have an effect. There's always a risk that anyone on trial is an innocent person.

However this does not mean that this potential risk should ever trump the very good reasons there are for naming accused people who are charged with any crime. And it does not mean that rape should be a 'special case' when it comes to retaining anonymity for the accused.

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ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 19:58

Yet people still insist that being accused of rape will ruin someone's life and insist that this happens in epidemic numbers and more often than being accused of other crimes Hmm

Is anyone able to get in touch with Craig Charles? I think he must have missed the memo that his life should be in ruins now.

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 31/07/2016 19:57

I'd be interested to know what impact the i believe you campaign has had. Or how much things have changed in general.

I was violently and repeatedly raped throughout the night by a friend. My then best friend who went with me to get the MAP believed me about my experience but thought I partly brought it on myself by being so drunk and putting myself in that situation. And if course he was drunk too so can't really be accountable.

When I hypothetically tested the water with my mother her view was the same.

When he told my male friends he'd been a bastard to me they told him he was out of order, had a chuckle about his womanising ways. All stayed friends.

When I told my husband he thought the bloke was unpleasant. Didn't say much else. Never mentioned it again.

So I thought it pretty much was my fault and it wasn't really rape. Hard to shake that feeling.

Many years later reading MN about other problems i started to realise there was a different angle to consent.

Since then one of the male friends suggested I might want to avoid a situation because he was still friends with the person. My mum took herself off to bed upset cutting conversation dead because she didn't want to know. And my stbxh thinks it's acceptable to pressure me into sex because he was fed up waiting post DC2.

I'd love to know how much attitudes have changed. Because I came to this chat board very recently after a few years already on MN thinking "I believe you" was just a kind thing to say to women in case it was true. I didn't think it meant women were actually believed.

I'm not convinced outside this sort of environment they are.

I know that it's easy to get stuck in your own circumstances and I am a bit. But I think it's relevant that i read a thread like this and why on earth would I feel I'd be believed.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 19:55

I have also never said that being falsely accused of rape can never be damaging. I'm pretty sure that I even said earlier on this thread that there have been a few cases where it has been damaging and had serious repercussions.

However I have seen no evidence to suggest that being falsely accused of rape is worse or more damaging than being falsely accused of any other serious crime.

Being falsely accused of any crime can (and the key word here is can because it won't always) have serious consequences.

ripples101 · 31/07/2016 19:51

Right so you admit that it isn't just rape that can have a damaging effect if someone is falsely accused? Being falsely accused of any crime could have serious repercussions, right?

So why is it just rape that is singled out as being damaging?

I feel like I'm being led down a path that I never intended to step upon. I admit that it isn't just rape? Did my post imply that it was just rape? I cited an anecdotal example outside of rape only to show that yes, an accusation, any accusation can have a profound effect.

I have never singled out anything.

The only thing I have said in this entire thread (across my 3 posts submitted to this thread) is that a false allegation can have a profound affect, but even then, my very first post specifically stated that the whole notion of focusing on a false accusation in a topic such as this can only ever be a distraction from the actual and very serious issue at hand.

PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 19:49

Rape is supposedly seen by all as a horrible crime, and yet these kinds of discussions are rarely, if ever, allowed to focus upon the female victims, because they are derailed by some who point out that "women make false accusations", "accusations can ruin men's lives", "men get raped too".

YY ripples, alologists think saying "there's never any excuse for rape it's a disgusting crime" means they are not contributing to a rape culture. I've never heard anyone say they don't find rape abhorrent, but still hold misogynistic views re rape

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ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 19:48

Brock Turner isn't the only case where that has happened btw.

I can think of quite a few cases off the top of my head where rapists have been defended whilst their victims have been shamed.

The Steubenville high school rape case for instance.

PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 19:46

You are trying to encourage, force and persuade men to care deeply about a group in society to which they don't belong.

Am I? That's certainly not how I recognise feminism. Besides should we really have to persuade men to care about women?

You are asking men to care about you in a way you don't care about them, and you feel it's owed to you. Maybe it is.

When did I say I didn't care about men? That's a huge assumption based on one opinion I have about rape.

If there was a situation that negatively affected a relatively small number of women but was beneficial for a larger proportion of men, feminists would not consider that an acceptable price for women to pay. Yet false accusations are like that and you expect men not only to be fine with it, but to continue to support you. That is not just, nor is it realistic.

So justice for rape survivors is "a price men have to pay"? Explain please. Are you suggesting that women should then suffer because a few men (and we know for a fact it is just a few) may or may not have a false accusation brought against them?

Statistically (I don't know where the statistic came from so it may not be accurate), I've seen a figure floating around the web that a rape victim is 20 times more likely to see the rapist jailed than someone who has been falsely accused of rape is likely to see their accuser sentenced. That isn't just either.

Link please otherwise you've just made that up

Not only should those falsely accused of rape not be punished without cause, but the accused in rape trials should not be punished, either by the legal system or by society, unless the trial ends in a guilty verdict

You keep coming back to this point, but when are those accused of rape punished by law before a guilty verdict? Or,
Come to think of it, society?

Feminism seems to have an uneasy relationship with the legal system. On one hand, you want to use it and reform it.

When did I say I wanted to reform the legal system?? Seriously you're making stuff up now

Perhaps it is isn't surprising that you are in favour of the punishment for the accused beginning as early as possible

Eh? Again when did I say this

And yes, it does matter whether or not you are just because, just as the with the 'black lives matter' protests, the people you are appealing to are also the people you are accusing. They need to see you as trustworthy and capable of a measured response that acknowledges their rights as well as your own.

Aaaand Bingo! Tou have successfully completed all anti-feminist rhetoric - we should be nice And reasonable so the menz will look at us adoringly. However else will we get them to respect us wimmin?!

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ripples101 · 31/07/2016 19:45

I'm suggesting that it does have an affect on people's lives.

You're right, it isn't evidence. It is anecdotal at best. But it isn't about how others objectively view her. It is about how she subjectively views herself AFTER going through such an experience. And it is that subjectivity (not the objectivity of others) that results in having a profound affect.

I'm merely stating that it can and has ruined people's lives, careers. Having said that, I don't want to detract from the real issue at hand here in this particular thread while making this particular point. I'm in no way trying to suggest or argue for the kind of situation you questioned in your post.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 19:45

Irrespective of the crime one is accused of, if one is innocent of that crime, then it will have a profound effect.

Right so you admit that it isn't just rape that can have a damaging effect if someone is falsely accused? Being falsely accused of any crime could have serious repercussions, right?

So why is it just rape that is singled out as being damaging?

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 19:43

Take Brock Turner for instance.

Two men caught him sexually assaulting an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and once he realised he had been caught he tried to run away. Luckily one of the men caught him and they managed to keep him there until the police arrived.

Despite the fact the woman was unconscious and he was caught in the act by two other people, there are still people who are insisting that Turner is innocent, he was wrongly convicted, it wasn't his fault because he was drunk and he didn't know what he was doing, etc (being drunk obviously didn't stop him from trying to run away once he realised he had being caught, did it?).

Turner's friends and family have also defended him and his actions to the point of stupidity. His father, Dan Turner, even wrote a letter saying that his son doesn't deserve to go to jail, he won't be able to cope in there, etc and he even went as far to say that his son shouldn't be going to jail for "20 minutes of action" Angry. Yes he described his son sexually assaulting an unconscious woman as "20 minutes of action" Angry.

Some of Turner's friends have also said that he doesn't deserve to go to jail because he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing.

The comments section on youtube and articles online are flooded with people defending him whilst shaming the victim - she's a slut, a liar, crying wolf, she wasn't raped it was just drunken regret sex, etc. Those last three don't even make sense because a) she wasn't the one who accused him and in fact she didn't wake up until later in hospital and b) he wasn't charged with rape because no sex took place - he was charged with sexual assault because that is what he has done - he sexually assaulted her. So how could it have been "drunken regret sex" if no sex even took place?

Not to mention all the "oh the poor dear, his life is ruined now" comments Angry