Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

Great post chocchoc

Gone, how does a pickpocket prove that he had permission to take someone's wallet vs. me taking my partner's wallet from his pocket to pay for something? Or a charity worker prove that they had permission to take someone's belongings to a charity shop rather than a burglar stealing it?

The only real way, is that my husband won't call the police to report it/the home owner doesn't consider the furniture stolen. ie. my partner and I can happily have sex, because, we both know that we want to have sex, and it won't be rape. A man needs to be sure that his penis is wanted.

I know you want to make out this is hard, but it really, really isn't. I've had a boyfriend continue to put his penis in me whilst I pushed on his chest and said stop - that's clear. I've had a bloke I knew buy me doubles and take me home - luckily, despite his dodgy tendencies, he wasn't a rapist, and I even safely slept next to him in his bed until morning and I could walk home. I've had sex with someone I was hugely attracted to, whilst drunk and got up the next morning with a smile on my face, but knowing that I really shouldn't have done it - that wasn't rape, that was just regrettable. WOMEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE - at least when society hasn't persuaded them that it's all their fault and they owe the bloke.

If you have to persuade and cajole, and get a woman drunk, if what you are doing could be described as 'taking advantage' then you know that what you are doing is wrong, and currently, you will never have to face any consequences for your abhorrent behaviour. Start treating women better, even as well as society treats a wallet, by believing them when they say they were raped, and having a man justify why he thought he could have sex, and we're a long way towards a better society.

As to the effect on other people (I assume you mean men here) - well, men might get less sex. I think that's a good trade for a lot less rape isn't it?

That's the point though - how much more assurance do men need that women care about them? Men's needs have been central for millennia. Are they so insecure that any indication that women's needs might be worth considering is enough for them to feel not cared about? Because that is how you are making men sound, gone. You are doing men as a group no favours here.

To me, attempting to work together is a lot less depressing than assuming no one cares about the other and we're all out to fight for ourselves. Apart from anything, it's so ineffective we'll be at it for the next millennium.

kickass yes quite, the post was in response to a number of posts claiming that unlike other crimes, a rape victim isn't believed in society and within the legal process, the other person is. That may still be true in some ways but it doesn't seem to hold any truth from the perspective of the person accused.

I think it's pretty likely that anyone arrested for any offense is probably treated like they have something to admit, as the police question them about where they were and what they did. I don't think it's just men arrested for rape.

Just as there are likely to be innocent people arrested for other crimes who find their lives upset and themselves traumatized.

It doesn't mean that someone arrested for rape is being treated any differently than someone arrested for bodily harm, or attempted murder.

buffy

Seems fair enough to me, we have been doing it the way they want for hundreds of years

Maybe it should be our way now,

You stop raping and we will stop being worried that we might be raped

I'm not making up anything that has been said, though it does seem that many posters haven't thought through what their views mean for groups outside their own sphere.

No, I'm really not buffy. I'm saying it's a two way street and the 'you go first' 'no you go first' approach is unhelpful and unrealistic.

hap

Completely agree with that article

What possesses a person to call themselves Swallow on a social media site for dating? Someone who has little regard for consent.

A friend's daughter was contacted by Swallow on Tin*er. Apart from the "charming" comment we all gave, sarcastically, we did wonder collectively if this person would be fully conversant with the concept of consent. We all agreed no. Friend and her husband, her daughters and myself.

what does gone want feminists to do that will make asking men to care about women a "reasonable" request?

Of course I don't think you have to earn the right to have an opinion. I'm sick and tired of you making up things you think posters have said to you, which they manifestly haven't.

I think it's reasonable to be curious if you stating that feminists to make sure that they focus on justice for all is a position you only take towards feminists, or if you similarly exhort men to focus on justice for all. You don't have to answer, just as you haven't answered many other questions, but please don't misrepresent others when you don't.

And why is that any business of yours jac? Do you think I have to earn the right to an opinion?

Gone. A man is a human being, reasonably educated. I'm sure a man is able to discern consent. Men are not stupid.

A woman is a human being, reasonably educated. I'm sure a woman is able to discern consent. Women are not stupid.

When you say we have a different approach to rape, whom are you alluding to?

We disagree on consent. You think I'm wrong. I'm convinced your experience is limited and it can occasionally be complex for others. No one wants to have that thread again. I'm interested to see you are reading my posts again felas. Unless feminists have been democratically elected in charge of women while I wasn't looking, you are in no position to tell another woman if anything is complicated or otherwise in her life. We have had centuries of being dictated to by men. It's not starting again under a different label.

felas I've responded to your question in an earlier post. Sorry, but I'm not repeating myself just because you couldn't be bothered to read it.

"Feminism goes wrong in failing to fight for justice, full stop"

Do you spend as much time on male dominated boards exhorting them to fight for justice for women as you do here?

Sorry, wyld, I didn't mean court reporting per se, but all reporting to do with crimes and judicial matters. For example, this dreadful article on the Cheryl James inquest:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3624754/Sex-bullying-toxic-atmosphere-female-recruits-yearned-accepted-fury-continues-Deepcut-verdict-question-remains-women-really-serving-alongside-men.html

what a checks and balances approach will achieve is maintaining that unfairness at its current level.

Says who? It depends entirely upon the force of whatever checks and balances are there - like politics. If you're saying that this approach is all wrong and we should be working across the genders for mutual goals, then I agree. But that's not what it looks like.

In fact, we don't need to choose between male casualties and female casualties. And we will not get widespread support for female casualties if we show no concern for anyone else's position but our own. Too many women identify as human before they are women for this to work. Too many women are mothers to boys. Too many men perceive feminism as a dangerous force that would delight in crushing men as women have been crushed (I'm not convinced they're wrong). It's not helpful.

Feminism goes wrong in failing to fight for justice, full stop. Why should anyone stop caring about something because it doesn't happen often? Stranger rape doesn't happen often but we think men should care. Ensuring the legal process is just and that only the guilty are punished is something we should all work towards together because it benefits everyone. Feminism, like 'black lives matter' can't achieve anything really significant without being trustworthy.

Consent isn't complicated gone as we have discussed in detail before. You like to think it is, doesn't make it so.