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Original poster

Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

706 replies

PinkyofPie · 28/07/2016 15:40

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim Shock and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them Sad

OP posts:
FreshwaterSelkie · 30/07/2016 09:34

I can't see where Toads did anything like what Peggy is alleging. She seemed very respectful to me - all she did was point out that a rape allegation being withdrawn, and a false allegation being proved are two different things. I don't know why that is offensive or provoking.

And YY to the nit-picking, PinkyofPie. We seem to attract quite a lot of drive by snark. Interesting, isn't it?

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 30/07/2016 08:45

Peggy give this a read around the "yes means yes" law introduced in California. I'd rather our laws were based around this, aka enthusiastic consent. So it may not be in the UK but some places in the world have these in place. I'd love anyone to tell me why this is a bad thing I'm sure someone will soon enough

OP posts:
Original poster
PinkyofPie · 30/07/2016 08:40

peggy

Oh look, a PA nit picking comment I was talking about

Hmm yourself

So do you think having to persuade a woman to have sex, and her reluctantly doing it, is fine, because it's technically still a "yes"? Just because the law doesn't provide a script for consent it does not mean it's ok to coerce a reluctant woman into bed.

Someone mentioned upthread about men who've had to do persuading. Thinking back to my youth, this happened to me countless times. Ie I only wanted to go so far and then a "go on it'll be fun" attitude was taken. I don't know if ended up doing it because I used to be a passive person, or because I have been raised in a patriarchal society where men's dicks are seen as being of paramount importance and no one wants a frigid woman....maybe a bit of both. I dunno. But I said yes, reluctantly. I was not raped. But looking back, any man with an ounce of decency would have left it and respected my wishes not just that of their penises. They too are raised in a patriarchy and maybe didn't realise what they were doing was disrespectful. And this is why messages around consent need to change.

I'm sure you'll come back telling me how disgusting I am because poor menz did nothing wrong etc. But anyone who thinks we should not place importance on the way in which women consent or the way men gain sexual relations respectfully, is frankly a misogynistic apologist who I have no time for

OP posts:
Felascloak · 30/07/2016 08:32

I've reported your attack on toad peggy.
Why is us talking about people being defensive towards rapists upsetting you so much?

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 30/07/2016 08:31

prggy WTF! Where on earth has Toads said that?! All she said was that the 17yo may or may not have raped someone. That is a fact.

Funny how no one ever gets up in arms about about the women who die after a rape. We're just collateral fucking damage. You can say what you want about women without being called 'vile'.

Also re the celebrity rapists. I think a good comparison to draw (although this is DV not rape) is Jonny Depp - when Amber Heard came out saying he's hit her, people ties themselves in knots to make out the ways in which she was a liar. Even on MN one poster said she should have ducked when he threw that phone at her. I can guarantee Amber will never work in Hollywood again. Meanwhile a rapist is hailed as a hero. Whoever says this is not a sexist issue needs their heads checking.

OP posts:
peggyundercrackers · 30/07/2016 08:26

And yes it should be given.

Can you tell me where the law states that? Hmm

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 30/07/2016 08:25

Felascloak yes I've noticed on these type of threads that, rather than engaging in a useful debate with salient points, some posters will passively aggressively pick at points or wording in our posts to try and derail the conversation so we have a thread full of posts about semantics. Now I wonder what kind of people would do that....

I noticed upthread when someone gave a list of men whose lives have not being ruined after raping someone, rather than say "actually yes Mike Tyson is still a multi millionaire and much loved a-lister" the tone was "HA you're WRONG woman, so and so has never been convicted, therefore your whole point is WRONG".

I'm just gonna say it - it reeks of reasoning that can only ever come from an entitled male

OP posts:
peggyundercrackers · 30/07/2016 08:23

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Original poster
PinkyofPie · 30/07/2016 08:21

peggy a useful video on enthusiastic consent. And yes it should be given.

OP posts:
Dutchcourage · 30/07/2016 07:55

From a slightly different perspective, I wonder how many people are booking Cliff Richard for gigs these days...

Hopefully none.

peggyundercrackers · 30/07/2016 07:46

But is that enthusiastic consent?

Is enthusiastic consent different from normal consent? I didn't realise we had to give enthusiastic consent...

peggyundercrackers · 30/07/2016 07:45

Is that a world-wide statistic, or just based in the country where you live

Nope it's not a statistic anywhere, it's ayeamaroks own thoughts.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 30/07/2016 00:17

A lot of women who have been raped kill themselves too, or make suicide attempts or self-harm. None ever have the life they were going to before the rape; and many suffer from addictions, depression or difficult relationships. It would be safe to say that for most their lives are ruined in some way either for a long time or forever.

And YY to this.

Of course they're women so their suffering doesn't matter as much...

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 30/07/2016 00:05

Just read it again and just based off that article alone, the case wasn't actually proven to be a false accusation.

There are no mentions of the girl being charged with making a false accusation and I'm assuming that if she had been it would have been mentioned. So if no charges were brought then it obviously isn't known for a fact that the accusation was false.

The boy also had a prior history of low mood and depression before the accusation was made so it's not unbelievable that his suicide might have been linked to that.

Interestingly enough his uncle actually says that he would like to meet the girl and hear her side of the story. He also says he is angry at the girl. It made me think that if it turned out that he had in fact raped her (which I'm not saying he did and we likely wouldn't know if he had now that he is dead) would he still feel angry towards her? For speaking out for being raped?

Again I'm not saying that he raped her however I am saying that we don't know for sure she falsely accused him.

We need to be careful about what we label as a false accusation.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 29/07/2016 23:47

Also missjoy I've just had a quick read of that article and unless I'm missing something that case was never actually proven to be a false accusation.

According to that article, the girl made an accusation but then withdrew it a few weeks later. He then went on to commit suicide.

I know there is a tendency for people to assume that if an allegation is withdrawn then that must mean it was a false accusation but that simply isn't case. There are many reasons why a woman would withdraw a genuine complaint of rape. So just because she withdrew her allegation does not mean she was lying about it.

Him killing himself doesn't automatically mean the accusation was false either. People who commit crimes, including rape, can also kill themselves.

I will read the article properly in a minute as like I said I just gave it a quick read but from what that article says it was never actually proven to be a false accusation. People just assume that a withdrawn complaint = false accusation and because he committed suicide later then that definitely = false accusation.

However I feel a bit wrong talking about it as he's dead now so he can't defend himself. So I'll stop now.

KindDogsTail · 29/07/2016 23:44

MissJoy
That case you linked was certainly tragic. That young man killed himself though even though the complaint was withdrawn after two weeks.
Meanwhile, the proportion of people falsely accused of rape is misicule compared to the number who were actually raped most of whom never even
reported it.

A lot of women who have been raped kill themselves too, or make suicide attempts or self-harm. None ever have the life they were going to before the rape; and many suffer from addictions, depression or difficult relationships. It would be safe to say that for most their lives are ruined in some way either for a long time or forever.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 29/07/2016 23:32

fake rape allegations dont ruin peoples lives?

Generally no.

missjoy · 29/07/2016 23:26

fake rape allegations dont ruin peoples lives?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heartbroken-mum-teen-who-killed-8518826#ICID=sharebar_twitter

JacquettaWoodville · 29/07/2016 23:14

Misrepresenting Aye nicely there, redactio.

Why should one woman's view make all women look ridiculous, redactio? Do all men look ridiculous because Boris Johnson doesn't know the difference between Nigeria and Nepal, or whatever gaffe he's made this week?

KindDogsTail · 29/07/2016 23:13

Sorry, AyeAmarok

KindDogsTail · 29/07/2016 23:12

I agree AyeAmok

AyeAmarok · 29/07/2016 22:04

Oh give over. "Maybe half" is not a statistic. And it was actually "maybe half?" with a question mark. I was supposing, not quoting a bloody statistic.

Obviously I did not mean that half of all men are rapists. What I do think is that many, "maybe half?", of men have had sexual contact of some sort with a woman that probably would not have happened, at least to the same extent, if the woman hadn't been drunk (or less able to be direct for some other reason).

Anecdotally, from my own experience and that of my friends, most if not all have had experiences where they've been with a man, they've been getting more and more intimate and they start to feel uncomfortable about it and say slow down/stop/not tonight or they want to keep their clothes on/touch over clothes or just kiss and talk or whatever, and they get persuaded to take it further by the guy.

Persuaded, and yes they go along with it. But is that enthusiastic consent? Not really, not in my book. Is it rape? Probably not. But I'd feel quite ill if I'd had to persuade a man into having sex (or whatever sexual contact) with me in that way as he didn't really want to do it. But the next day guys are bragging that they managed to get her to give him head/touch her vagina/get her naked/have sex. You know, all the things we hear guys talk about. Like it was a conquest; a challenge they overcame with their manly manliness.

If you've never had this happen then lucky you. Most women have though. And I think many guys have pushed their luck with women. But none of these men would consider "pushing their luck" to be rape/coercion or sexual assault. They just think it's part of the mating dance.

MammouthTask · 29/07/2016 21:40

I agree with AyeAmarok numbers. I cannot remember which study I had come across bit yes most men have actually 'raped' a woman in their life.
I remember well because I had read the research paper to DH who vehementally was telling it just was NOT possible.

In reality, a lot of men will have had sex with someone who is drunk, assumed consent etc etc They will not have seen that as rape and will be most upset if someone is telling them yes indeed this WAS rape.
We are talking about the well known fathers there, people who are respected in the community, are well thought off and most importantly will see themselves as someone who is kind, helping people out and always respectful (of the law and others)

I'll have to find that research again. Someone else had post it MN.

Felascloak · 29/07/2016 21:34

Anyway, talking about unlikely defences, has anyone else been following the India Chipchase trial? I was horrified to find articles with headlines saying "daughter of prominent doctor drank 6 jaegerbombs the night she died" as if that was somehow the main reporting feature as to how she came to be dead in a strangers flat, having been strangled.
Luckily it's been taken down now due to an outcry but his whole defence borrows heavily from rape myths.

www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/29/the-sun-and-the-culture-of-victim-blaming

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-36916442

Felascloak · 29/07/2016 21:26

pinky an allied OP could be why is it that whenever we have a post about rape, there is an influx of posters nitpicking and telling us (by us I mean regular posters on this board) that we are wrong?
You'd almost think some people don't want us to discuss this